From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id kIqjCti/GWI8DgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 06:51:20 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id OJNKA9i/GWLQRQEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 06:51:20 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86B05344D2 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 06:51:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43866 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNpzC-0002WB-M5 for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 00:51:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55652) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNpyf-0002Vu-Kb for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 00:50:45 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::536] (port=46767 helo=mail-pg1-x536.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNpyc-0000Vu-EO; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 00:50:45 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id o23so6523428pgk.13; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 21:50:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=FsOEQ+wh1iAppzpQSzNI72EnSr6XAlIRxqdPhLY2u6E=; b=FEoA2NV4F0ds8+2xyl1jcd9b1bgEbmuZnlu2hP2cp0xuCC+FqFmqHORGzZNiCXuA4U 2rwWWSMWaOQ/Y6obC9+ZkbTLmQXOmrE94QYz8gB5WGNNziQIQ3wKeRlu5+/L6arvdkCU quouJMRNNVOoujYqvvJkGBzvWpHp0t4g6wPnGRD8ekQ2/5wtnUQGxwD2bWAQin2tdu0R cUExYeNrvdKy3TrOlt9PJ3BzUASzCK7lhqKYpPL9DByUFjIS6ojmwoZXHcM8wlcA45Z6 Uk8Foxyxf/Ljzh8m8FE01OLwdNGcAarY76z1qpkVSPcNpx9RGHfwKH7O0AV/vXgTyCzs 9C6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=FsOEQ+wh1iAppzpQSzNI72EnSr6XAlIRxqdPhLY2u6E=; b=wnrYqGer0wXAWODdjiiLeCq5Y09Lj6JuI9ZIdXRYpUSmAPPTm54wnrTa9VPEQon1E2 pbcZ7YHRCKI8u56TTMhli/IJd19SKgDmsAJKmbsvJAR1d5iksZS/RC6fb5w6i8nZ7aPa H2wWKP8tGISY044J+hRqaqsDuvqwZya1Us9oL+azcGuG5EnAEf6ZnjdgHzl5RNHyqu5B kIThxQ07J3bk0L0mMw3DezXjbOq33DoPwzElUdpR42RtYEO3yQEq5jGIBI+4IqaO6obo Y4IvQciDwzNbsN5ggdgV/2SBcomHdzmBthvToDWpViAf15areGOgysxGUMOlukUK8WhU FHLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5336JiQR2PC3y1PJZCRReI2dHb+RBZMBC2YeERy/KT9bjgx6WQXf cOoObuoq9l+49jkqVdAYZG0xxh97h1mktQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylPPN1URqFQyvkh7atwgGRyCvm0+1uNwBBtBAr5qoO4nNATVeh1EmUrk2f2ejjT8uUKRRKsg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4041:0:b0:372:c918:631a with SMTP id n62-20020a634041000000b00372c918631amr9032954pga.370.1645854639595; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 21:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([45.128.72.3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g5-20020a655805000000b003643e405b56sm4294514pgr.24.2022.02.25.21.50.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 25 Feb 2022 21:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Bastien Guerry Subject: Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github In-Reply-To: <871qzqg81c.fsf@gnu.org> References: <0472f849f3ae42df68b0f031d61594d9@posteo.de> <87ilt3yvqj.fsf@localhost> <877d9j3u91.fsf@localhost> <17c95e5a298c213c63b6f7ac9f05aac4@posteo.de> <87y21z2d2b.fsf@localhost> <871qzqg81c.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 13:50:09 +0800 Message-ID: <87r17q2n3i.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::536 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::536; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x536.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.659, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: c.buhtz@posteo.jp, Emacs orgmode , Richard Stallman Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645854679; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=FsOEQ+wh1iAppzpQSzNI72EnSr6XAlIRxqdPhLY2u6E=; b=iqP9ZD6eceSuhz6f5qfox3N68WMIadyB12bmXixD5RtXOtQHfF/+1Ryz6kjKSOz3iaiYOW xZv8fJ4iu3sYxSzLXSb6pmX/Y0p33XdXyq3WyxqaElLV47cjbpwI1BZCtO7hu/7RPK/bmB nTz9dkOSsvhTByUUS1L+T0U4JsTg4g8A85p8LXfXLG2KI+lRFGA5az3FZnVDJfkaeu/OkE H4PqWijgTXbUKZpOKTqQF+uJdV4A0hOSigIs2/ZyMEG1FKgXc1KgoOYASTsziYNdfXWEBJ 4KSJC3UK2ms3xefHeGdt0+1QfDLC1qVarBopcNNsme3tK292kH5aW0ajgm9IPg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645854679; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=D02G9nBSmmVYzkIpD6hAZRQp43o/PQq85NiE6toiAfmNRkI7vfDqjG3Rmnw1KTtinbhr7D rdGBbsqymkrB0BjCDwmXhoYLqfOI68oSuAd9SIvbsfq4rY7Q6IBwdtO3RlobM1JBwRGuVx pCmlazx4qrnrURiucpD/83wA03RUS1hdG3xrZV/klTWX1iPwTLJv0N6QDw5iiLKfjeC2CV 8MUhLzm5mMh38pYC4RwPW1Bc3h7ElUG9AZ6cl6qnUo537tNPjm4sy4h4NKaKO+Uq4hjXaq TiQS+vQI502TBfms9N+OP/xSCNg7VvVT265VzbIUc0t0wmME+S1B2E/5PK+4Tw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FEoA2NV4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.82 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=FEoA2NV4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 86B05344D2 X-Spam-Score: -5.82 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: OAY9fy3s+vor CCing RMS as this discussion might be of interest for him. The previous emails in the thread are in https://list.orgmode.org/b074b191-b06f-928d-284c-7a7ee5d97ce8@ctpowe.net/T/#u Bastien Guerry writes: > Thanks for raising this issues. > > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well, >> AFAIK. > > I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org. To clarify, I did not intend to make you remove those links, but rather wanted to hear your opinion and open a discussion. As Michael pointed out, https://my.fsf.org/donate itself contains a paypal payment option: >> PayPal (not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript) Given the apparent contradictory statement in the GNU Coding Standards (section 8), I feel that either we misunderstand something or the standards should be updated adding guidelines for the donation services. Donations (maybe except certain cryptocurrencies) are inherently non-free because even for direct bank transfers users are often forced to use bank "security" apps. At the same time, limiting the donation options will do a lot of harm to FSF projects - cryprocurrency entry barriers are too high for many users to donate even if they wish to and not all the countries allow crypto legally. The entry barriers are important. From my own experience, compared to just bank details, some online payment made a difference in my decisions to donate. Easy and familiar web services really facilitate actual donations (as well as feedback from new users). I wish there were more easy donation options for an ordinary user to donate to FSF projects without a need to rely on non-free software. Note that even liberapay, while providing bank transfer payments, also offers paypal. Yet, it is the best option I am aware of. Maybe FSF could step up providing such service? > I've not removed the link to https://liberapay.com: I suppose it is > usable without requiring non-free Javascript, but I've not checked. > If someone wants to check, that'd be appreciated. I just tried to setup a payment via liberapay using firefox with librejs extension. I was unable to complete the card payment. It appears that card payment service liberapay is using requires non-free javascript. I might be wrong though. It was the first time I actually tried using liberapay. In any case, given FSF website providing paypal option, liberapay should not be an issue. But it leaves us with no real option to allow _easy_ donations yet committing to FSF guidelines. > I've not removed every links to github.com on orgmode.org: e.g. the > link to TEC's homepage at the bottom of the website is still here. > > The reason is that browsing TEC's GitHub profile does not require > non-free Javascript: I can browse it fine with M-x eww. > I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the > Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.) Sounds reasonable. >> However, WORG contains links to various blogs, reddit, >> stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I notice that I >> am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the topic. > > Here is my view on this: the orgmode.org website is part of the GNU > project because Org is part of the GNU project, hence the root pages > of https://orgmode.org should follow the GNU standards. > > Worg is different: it is a community-driven documentation about Org. > Even though worg contents are licensed under GNU FDL, they are not > part of the GNU project. > > If needed, we can make this clearer on the website or even host worg > on a dedicated domain name. If we really want to be very strict about following FSF, we might advice users about alternative ways to view youtube (invidious/youtube-dl). I just tried stackoverflow and reddit via librejs. The links there can be opened and be read. I do not think that we need to care much about commenting. Best, Ihor