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Wed, 13 Oct 2021 02:01:02 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin?= Le Gouguec References: <541af1a2-d532-13f7-8cf6-6edbfe64fdc1@easy-emacs.de> <87zgre6qgx.fsf@gmail.com> <4c834a6c-e92b-443d-90e9-f9dbef527f0c@easy-emacs.de> <87czo9z8cc.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 11:01:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: ("Andreas =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=B6hler?="'s message of "Wed, 13 Oct 2021 09:48:55 +0200") Message-ID: <87pms9b8oi.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: 51167@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1634115968; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Sg1G9V4wMvuljCFrnM4VldfdtrZh/9tuMgieqyXwE5s=; b=jKI78YnNNUXDaZ3g4yAaOpFd6A6iWmo+9TFcB6FW22oBg/8bFjTK4Q0IFA3fAlu1cFwaZU 6eaZ4+ahrCqAd0Ztez8A6d5qMyogxgOfx4kSIvSMUIn4LfpFvcYaToFESx97Gn8h6D4QFd 48hpHJ3r4pK8ijNl2ad6o6RnqKaRREty+F0BRCmKcwvErM6a8EaZp99UQUo5w1jmFBqKtF 0Z2aL5TDajFnkVqb4TzoyWr41Jdv/tZpTDQzznBdc2qAix0dthvzLu2odAOSJOg/nvLHcC YrtrIqxQMmOk3QUIeCzDOOWSMhRe26tHJl0gosD3KqgLLqyx7x53IL00MWAv4Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1634115968; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=k6nlp28C+pCETlPOn4YFP+vPsa6D+7mf1C0h81jSB7XfYF34jDhF7YR/I3EXjew2JxJLe0 GtGmkMX758zrJ3v3pNkdEHuiBSja6vsSHu2dvdrlRQBpssx+KdbE2s72NgP2i9+umeZrT9 gG2A7dFR7e/rh9Z3c9SbOzqNYWmtaPsAepxuemcH17PdAprltIXensOMXVueqrHbo0MMDz N5QHoAt9na25IwaD2QgH7nNqlURew6Gkomqg4pVI0XTt59PAoIxwE78udBJEmmNhTD4frc QHEZPaVC7ErP6x7SK1XQ18XBPCoA48fLL63Vu+ZvnX/QsEVYt9B0XQUwhomLPQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dkPE78FB; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dkPE78FB; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 8A23812606 X-Spam-Score: -1.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: oMbzbgdpJbmH Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: > On 13.10.21 09:34, K=C3=A9vin Le Gouguec wrote: >> >> "Modern" did not factor in; the goal was to have RET and C-j behave >> consistently in all major modes. > > That does not deliver an argument to change the meaning of RET. If there is a compelling argument that justifies RET and C-j behaving differently in Org wrt other major modes, I haven't heard it yet. > BTW the costs of such changes are terribly underestimated in Emacs. AFAICT, the costs of user-facing changes are regularly discussed on the Emacs development lists, and different developers have different opinions on how underestimated they are. In the specific case of RET and C-j, I'd argue (and Org maintainers seem to have agreed) that the long-term benefits of Org falling in line with other modes outweigh the short-term costs of annoying long-time users, especially since they are offered ways to bring back the previous behaviour (outlined in ORG-NEWS). And in the specific case of org-adapt-indentation, again, changing the default to nil was the result of extensive discussion on emacs-orgmode, where several users explicitly stated that they did not want text to be indented (neither with RET, C-j, TAB, nor org-indent-line) and never realized that org-adapt-indentation was t because Org ignored electric-indent-mode before 9.4. >> Since electric-indent-mode is enabled globally in Emacs, > > Which IMO was another mistake. > > Preferring a clean editor, which does fancy things only if enabled. There are plenty of things Emacs does by default that I personally find unhelpful; fortunately I can just disable them. And as long as release notes point out changes in default behaviour (and how to revert them), I'm happy with new releases enabling new features. YMMV =F0=9F=A4=B7