From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2K+vGMXRmWPa9QAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:38:13 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id uMXOF8XRmWPMawAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:38:13 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAD95305B3 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:38:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p5Rwl-00005f-95; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 08:37:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p5Rwj-0008WD-Lb for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 08:37:17 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1p5Rwh-00066V-2A for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 08:37:17 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D204240103 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:37:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1671025031; bh=Gr4nifMs3Zi1HNjroKOduCZ222EKSliwaLCk/EWd9mY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=ovwaiA7WgSiKlW1TtJztLNM5qp3MISEesdCC4dkYXYJocbiILKA2YqDO5OGQ0ufY6 gmEsAnozaYMtykzdLCAnMFZsKmOwlgXpaPaQwYeKdShktbuKlEQ9LYIvCAITeV/4iQ lh8etiYvoeE1qIFc91o5hQQjU8s+IyxPacdGrlLxTDajn7z/lc+lHATwknIoANEFnN WS53LCSKi6EJjVv5HjU4pZe8niBYWzt1HsGtbqlahTuCCQ89moCTiUdRR9KMc5sTwE L++bdhDgsWqEj4amgug/gNxSc+mjXvC57KEKDkxdyT9qZaHSfTczJijuTD+aGeyahE lJcfnUMHTgxgw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4NXGcj1F8Tz6tmN; Wed, 14 Dec 2022 14:37:08 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Stefan Monnier , dsmasterson@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, michel@schi.nz, 59882@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#59882: Multiple versions of Org in load-path problem In-Reply-To: <83359innsp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87tu27jq7h.fsf@localhost> <87k032nyok.fsf@localhost> <39a5810d-75bc-4ddb-8722-703f762ed4de@app.fastmail.com> <835yel11x8.fsf@gnu.org> <87edt2qpoa.fsf@localhost> <83359innsp.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:37:07 +0000 Message-ID: <87pmcmt8cc.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1671025093; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=L5pZ7+IhPrlA3WrALJF4tyxp7V/x9G83HlsFWx4ciHA=; b=MsQw1Gc2Vi9dezfvcxPDIIYc7GNpOZVs4tHGrvO1JHiZDocBsr/KgUnYMEYrMiSewqD0Y7 eRuASzgkZrBp2zwGTnYMGjvnEN/Kk1H4QKumSupooS2xF3Hu7Vz9FV57FX0JVgr9L22yOa 9T56qluAFCl7VYkrWrOfFsLaR058Dbz6bduFW7mYGZrEnU/Gz5eVVt8XWF3vI8kau0z44f iA3GGIO2nOO91bRMyivwMuR5dprYEd4+ZepR+HNnSkthyPIa5vI4RTxQ0ufB6265ithmjm Xj/PyUGCgIMBtTuUBFbAjEnFAK4uYWvwlR2h141k0zzYSpTPJDTEIVxpUNYPgw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=ovwaiA7W; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1671025093; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Kgv2MR1vx93f6hWCVp5OpLmvSxDWrZABs4kCmjIbUFmFQBYUHETMsTBlIyavVs8oqJovjX 13AlHGm5e/D2zYnwPpKPR8kdCyOnB/MC+NbGMfHH5inU97sWUWZZiVsiZYaoSg8wHHLPQ6 vwT4iU/1wyRCz5WlWYPrZYy5czKzEybGjiEHfLBMwMZLy+vo7Paw4M3baWNeprNeTloSxc T5lVS6IlF9/eY8XEljUHZv/vLvlMlNhntjtqcqJ+HEALrjsrzHk+eiIyF3BByMLK70X/Ns V/HpYb0l/UwN2jjY7An3TrfDvmw891Y7KA4ywGWdYgWY+/WyQtM7dkLnVMr7ow== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.87 X-Spam-Score: -5.87 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EAD95305B3 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=ovwaiA7W; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-TUID: dMNlXaw2PgLd Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I am asking because org-mouse.el advises some functions and its loading >> may cause unexpected consequences. See >> https://orgmode.org/list/87r0x6sju1.fsf@fastmail.fm > > I think org-mouse.el should be fixed not to cause such effects just by > loading it. It should do that only when it is actually used. Yes, we plan to do exactly this https://orgmode.org/list/87zgbqqukg.fsf@localhost However, it will be a breaking backward-incompatible change. And we have similar issues with several important Org components (ol-* and ob-*). In particular, ob-*.el packages affect Org simply by defining function symbols with specific name patters (by ob-core.el design). Achieving no side effects is difficult in practice. Also, note that side effects are not uncommon in Elisp packages. Including, built-ins, like rect.el. dired+ comes to mind among popular third-party packages. >> At the same time, we have users complaining about some defcustoms not >> being available without loading. >> https://orgmode.org/list/25496.19258.682537.503614@gargle.gargle.HOWL > > That's too vague: it talks about "whether a variable exists", which is > ambiguous. That a variable is not boundp until its definition is > loaded is perfectly expected, and I don't think defcustom changes that > in any way (unless you autoload the defcustom, which is considered not > the best style around here). > > So I guess some clarification is in order: what exactly was the > problem with that variable being "nonexistent"? Agree. See the quote below: https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/25497.41832.663858.836948@gargle.gargle.HOWL/ Like I said in another message that I sent just before receiving yours my conclusion came from the fact that hitting 'C-h v' with the cursor on 'org-goto-interface' provided nothing. It was the first time this ever happened to me. I did try to explicitly enter the variable's name by entering 'org-goto', which (like 'org-go') is not enough: it is completed to 'org--goto'. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at