From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Dan Davison Subject: Re: Basic orgmode tutorial Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:07:46 -0400 Message-ID: <87ocidzgfx.fsf@stats.ox.ac.uk> References: <10AEC517-6BBA-4436-B567-D1D5AB6A78C8@gmail.com> <20100323220701.GE18401@thinkpad.adamsinfoserv.com> <0C588648-02E7-4C91-B66F-F994DBDB0433@gmail.com> <20100324171848.GK16785@thinkpad.adamsinfoserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NuVvn-0007L4-1t for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:07:55 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47460 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NuVvk-0007Ig-SJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:07:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NuVvi-0004xZ-4o for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:07:52 -0400 Received: from markov.stats.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.210.1]:43913) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NuVvh-0004xL-SJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 15:07:50 -0400 Received: from blackcap.stats.ox.ac.uk (blackcap.stats [163.1.210.5]) by markov.stats.ox.ac.uk (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o2OJ7m2A002060 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:07:48 GMT In-Reply-To: <20100324171848.GK16785@thinkpad.adamsinfoserv.com> (Russell Adams's message of "Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:18:48 -0500") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Russell Adams writes: > Carsten, > > I discussed this with a few users off an on. > > In the manual there are items required to setup org, keybindings, etc. > > The idea would be to include: > > - An Agenda file, which loads by default > - Init file which > - Preconfigured keybindings > - Remember keybinding for basic todo to agenda file > - Configured auto-mode-alist > - Recommended Global key maps I think this sort of approach, perhaps as part of an org-mode emacs distribution, sounds like a very good idea. > > They are all basic items to an experienced emacs user, but a new user > doesn't understand why they have to go edit the config file and make > changes. Their emphasis is on they want to run "Org-mode", not "Emacs > with Org-mode". Yes, exactly. I want to counter some of the recent pessimism on this topic. Org-mode is very attractive to people in its own right, and as it happens it is implemented in emacs. I know one person who has used org-mode constantly for a couple of years now, purely for the agenda and todo lists, without ever aquiring any ability or interest in using emacs per se. She knows the keys to change TODO states, set timestamps and call up the agenda and that was all that was needed. Although only scraping the surface of what org-mode can do, the fact that someone who otherwise only uses MS Word and firefox is still using org-mode after two years says something *extremely* positive about org-mode. So I don't think it is true that org-mode is hard to learn, *once* it is configured. And I don't think it's true that org-mode users have to know anything about emacs. Certainly I don't think org-mode newbies should go anywhere near the emacs tutorial (I don't use any of those navigation commands, what on Earth's wrong with up, down, left, right, page down etc?[3]) That also brings up the question of org-CUA-compatible -- would that be set in this putative newbie org configuration? Regarding the idea of an org-specific emacs distribution, the Emacs Speaks Statistics (ESS) project is in a similar situation in that many of its new users come to it not having used emacs previously. On their download page[1], they link to an easy-to-set-up Emacs installation for Windows and OS X maintained by Vincent Goulet[2] which is kept up-to-date with the current version of ESS. So what I am saying is that org-mode is sufficiently attractive that we should expect non-emacs users to be attracted to it, and that we should be optimistic about the ability of such people to start using org-mode. And that yes, we need to work on the configuration for them. Dan Footnotes: [1] http://ess.r-project.org/index.php?Section=download [2] http://vgoulet.act.ulaval.ca/en/ressources/emacs/ [3] Maybe it makes more sense if you can touch type, something which is common among college-educated people in the USA but not in the UK. > > Perhaps an install script which sets the file association for .org in > whatever OS they are installing to. Option icon to load straight to > agenda view... > > Just a few idea that have been bantered around, I suspect all of those > could be performed with a script as opposed to redistributing emacs. > > Thanks. > > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:52:41AM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote: >> Hi Russel, >> >> this is also a valuable idea. There are two avenues in this direction. >> >> 1. Make the org-mode defaults already set all this stuff up. >> >> 2. Offer a blind set of configurations and tell users, >> if you don' know nothing yet, use these. >> >> >> In either case, what would the improved defaults be that >> help beginners get a better start? >> >> - Carsten >> >> On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:07 PM, Russell Adams wrote: >> >>> The idea of a tutorial is great, but has anyone considered a >>> pre-configured out-of-the-box Org customized Emacs distribution? >>> >>> I've had to help several new users get things like basic agenda, emacs >>> initialization, and remember templates setup and it seemed very >>> repetitive. >>> >>> The Emacs learning curve really holds back Org adoption in that sense, >>> they can't just open Emacs and use Org immediately as anything other >>> than an outline editor. >>> >>> Perhaps just a script to enact default customizations, that the >>> tutorial could then build upon? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 07:59:11PM +0100, Alexander Poslavsky wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> lately there is some talk about a basic org-mode tutorial. Something >>>> simpler then the documentation, that will help a person new to emacs >>>> and org-mode start using org. I would like to put the following on >>>> worg, if people would think something like this would fit the bill. >>>> What do you think? If the response is positive then I would add more >>>> chapters to it. >>>> >>>> greetings, >>>> >>>> alex >>>> >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com >>> >>> PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ >>> >>> Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> - Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com > > PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ > > Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3 > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode