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[61.245.128.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x1sm3297404pgh.1.2021.12.06.11.01.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 06 Dec 2021 11:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: Timothy To: Russell Adams Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2021 02:47:28 +0800 References: <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> <878rwyi8bt.fsf@posteo.net> <87r1aqnu3q.fsf@gmail.com> <8735n6i4br.fsf@posteo.net> <796107.1638785063@apollo2.minshall.org> <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> <87bl1td20x.fsf@atlantis> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.9; emacs 28.0.50 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87o85to8wh.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638817340; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VeAkK77GCWh3igrzF0++b6/3okU6nzj/YEgEXgVZFhk=; b=NEjpwLea1JI40om2nFXpuyGwSqcn5C7o8YEgicArkQJkGiz/zBXMqGi/mdR1uykIIOapHl zlbrW9Hg5isvKtafv8lq8ZfyawBlM7FrsC/Hp3nQbD3TOivuxWQ3rssgGMS25yZDL8GBmA /lJfpAFgYS9ZF8QyDtg3uGBr0lrIcMn5Auge70B7DH/DIfoqMpFrufK8/jlJaKUMD9/CrV oEewjYJ+QIcnnMdvwOPPlbvnd6nLj4lHjdWHSkjmYYyTlJwM2zzpuoVACqmXH8PLM1/8K3 9rPYe0NiZ09jiB94XB8qohfLBcMeG7csoNPeU6BfvtSykWH9XOem1U6dZQ1Sow== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638817340; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=truz5qL6+uWCsaZA0jrcELGyB4quSk9iRZWfK1qQ561HbkQOC2iTryd1uHWSv6P1marE72 BodtyGu26yMr2PVq7kzn2eS60ZV+6owZB0mqQrZRPW65YhjQmA+nPUqMF6mffWDyD35BnK 4dVFKL5gNJPSadr+4bKXrdbicznEpR64U3HzGVs75pwajbadF9vGW6BRCr5oju1dIraD9F w9VtrazuOTlu94Dxh6tj+gcH9+SyeW/G1MI+44X/twjR/izhCFwszHHKUJ3OrG9LXOlVvn Cks7Mcqi68Z+SIZ+H5FS8bR57HjjuUaZMY2ROEbvGIy412kGqbDJAmkvQAhv/A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=JoZI0gPM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=JoZI0gPM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 45E3D3E779 X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: pnKpg1h1iWJL --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Russell, I have a few comments on your comments :) > These kind of issues snowball because we are also indirectly asking > for our coders and maintainers to consider those external tools while > continuing to support Org. As I read it, considering other tools was just in the respect of indicating= what degree of support different tools have for Org as defined by org-mode. Not changing anything we do based on those tools. > How many syntax documents are we supposed to maintain outside of the work= ing > implementation in Emacs and the manual? Just the one. I have some ideas on this that need to be written up, but I s= ee this more as polishing our syntax specification such that it=E2=80=99s is m= ore approachable for someone interested in supporting Org. IMO this leads to a syntax document which is just better, period. > The topic of software freedom comes up because by definition, other > tools are outside of Emacs and may be non-free. It=E2=80=99s important to > consider, but isn=E2=80=99t a reason to not discuss features. The key is = our > volunteers should not be required to code features for non-free tools > outside of Emacs. I don=E2=80=99t think anybody has proposed this. Personally I=E2=80=99m not= even sure how we went from making the website/docs more approachable to supporting 3rd party tools ourselves, or changing anything in org-mode itself for them=E2=80=A6 > An implied support requirement to preserve interoperability with > external tools is a large commitment, and could also run into the > non-free software issue. Expect people to have strong opinions about > these matters. With regards to this, by the very nature of things, any change that would b= reak interoperability with external tools would have to be a breaking change to = the syntax (with all the relevant implications for org-mode itself). In such a situation, this would be the major concern, not external tools, so I see th= is line of reasoning as being a bit moot. > Discussions are often fruitful for all involved and shouldn=E2=80=99t be a > problem when conducted in a respectful manner. Expect critical > opinions at times, but we should keep it civil. Indeed. I do find myself wishing that some discussions stayed more on-topic though=E2=80=A6 All the best, Timothy --=-=-=--