From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id oIU3OSoqj2CGQgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 03 May 2021 00:39:38 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id hqjiNCoqj2DsLgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 02 May 2021 22:39:38 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 250AF16C6C for ; Mon, 3 May 2021 00:39:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47614 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldKkS-0001Pl-4u for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 18:39:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldKjm-0001PM-0T for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 18:38:54 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]:39805) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldKjk-0003Bv-70 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 18:38:53 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id t4so1049828plc.6 for ; Sun, 02 May 2021 15:38:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=iCHHimTNkMN6/zmEgMzqqjKXYCozfK6rhovQgMu337w=; b=DxUYuAv436W08FgvWodfpvsv7+a4FSOJSQZVAnzqTqMDSJhlxaxoGcdHpFJ8RA2o0Y iBLBa8O8hE+a/AQLIqaGXkoAyW/db849QhJZRItg2TMqm0UKJr6j+zP9RRJ6QEqAs0gr 2Uc2Y5dzhFhGEzu98laRduhfdIPLUu8WZta3W+92xSStDSfs6FgBuTGTCeVOnWKBvcpI w7fl95zVGMKlLYh8hTnpKVnZdOYbaqJXrlF2+9clP4/ZxJCWWKzfrrofCieM6b7AJzCk RoEyUfCsQrzyShgLJY3CDmprr5GIVX/WfEAeG/5JS+PCbmb9bIfpVvYNYBzj7ZBA75I2 6zAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=iCHHimTNkMN6/zmEgMzqqjKXYCozfK6rhovQgMu337w=; b=lnuSiYU9F6nfSERfmuqv7++dEj6iUYts68Yd7MmfsDXMBL2PPqrThA945BekevXbcI hlqWiMcRWwTuA14rAs7Pl+spDWMR5Ngpmn8A02FIDsdPoToZ7Tk7SAZ4nidjbiuqJNpd hCUKxP8TgxwUvKdLWL382V4rmGAkFZwEXap2wPtOmDVCxWz1W3pWIjdfCFkmPgsNhK6E N8Nv2+KUj4qCwXuDYJeFJ7fFzR9ozWB8VvjiMok6BzL1hGag98X1IMW64nPr0Bxkj5Tx 2P/bqdc9jh6C8x+EF24ub99u1HWf930vGVb0xiDoek1fUQQnrR8LZD7RS3wa4Giz92dp jlNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uZLYXuQjaNFnGonpyFJvYOcKI9Gne5EKenkAkrthiruFZI1Dm vg7/0fIjZXITdjwyfs6FFa79j6iImzQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw1cFWzGOcmiXVxudXsGq1EGro7z+JERx4XN2YUIumhoMYMJ+AeMSmbxN2j1vNxJeC9Awf+lw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:eb06:b029:ee:b4e5:9ffc with SMTP id l6-20020a170902eb06b02900eeb4e59ffcmr9111495plb.21.1619995130180; Sun, 02 May 2021 15:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-157-192.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.157.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id pc17sm7281303pjb.19.2021.05.02.15.38.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 02 May 2021 15:38:50 -0700 (PDT) References: <878s4x3bwh.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7jl5xk5.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.12; emacs 28.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: Jean Louis Subject: Re: [POLL] Setting `org-adapt-indentation' to nil by default? Date: Mon, 03 May 2021 08:25:24 +1000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87mttcbw22.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::632; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x632.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619995178; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=iCHHimTNkMN6/zmEgMzqqjKXYCozfK6rhovQgMu337w=; b=cRA3ue+WH0GYYIQkVvH1k9GKCHK5nRyL8CaXw+lcf7w1ZJqYU6ecw7MKa6zN4/jmf/wA9s EroQORErufz/m15khV+EwBVWj5oN3krPDh1ckHnrrQDn8u38fLBq2QwCnB5T/aoggX67n2 1m+yO5f9kJJgSMvkxMUthyHiDMazjlgFPG25gKOa7QCU2YHVVSIcCtn2EUZJ2GfS3xeow5 fGa1qsk2d0GVwpsPE+dCZuxw4dJu6Vhen7bq/FxMdybSFVcZRA4lrsQ376VF5Dltn0v6TI kBjauagpSLQK8z6Ujgw354oiY8QXlWwCEZ8VHN8qegH2JTpypOWOH11xLLxhnQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619995178; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=pWAxoLWf01PlM/eb7LkeAT4kJgoLUmPHqgxnpbEmhnZlp/zJf2ituWyktNUSiO43njn5N7 1DKtfK5UUn4YP9+GjwVjBV0cPpLKBln/sYcY70ZFt1l2idhhL/F1TxnsfR6/d/tLQf9nyz 38z3EY7NAoKenNpGC9QLnf33NDVPa0D59MVGjdUJQkZUePkwoIavtevjtvBY+fNhgpn3IZ ZCrLHWuKWTgo8rML2hfprIat4vkgA1imBNusNjreCr4auqX4AiB1mF32H2LUgfXh/b3RBv 0sbQvYimZN1qxT2I/YDYABXUjvcnNm7U56xbwx7a7hothP/Hww8ZhUH5ljpc1A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=DxUYuAv4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.16 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=DxUYuAv4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 250AF16C6C X-Spam-Score: -2.16 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 0voMO7UizihA Jean Louis writes: > * Tim Cross [2021-05-02 11:52]: >> >> Jean Louis writes: >> >> > * Bastien [2021-05-02 09:10]: >> >> Various discussions convinced me that `org-adapt-indentation' should >> >> be nil by default. >> >> >> >> With `electric-indent-mode' being activated by default in Emacs, the >> >> current behavior is that RET after a headline moves the point below >> >> the beginning of this headline, not the beginning of the line, which >> >> might surprise users. >> >> >> >> Indentation is quite sensitive: what do you think of setting a new >> >> default value of nil for `org-adapt-indentation' in Org 9.5? >> > >> > Yes, it should be nil just as it was in beginning. >> > >> > But there is one problem that I encountered since that was introduced, >> > namely I do like properties being indented under the first letter of >> > heading or on 3rd place. >> > >> > Like this below, however, C-c C-x p will create properties indented >> > only if org-adapt-indentation is t >> > >> > * Heading >> > :PROPERTIES: >> > :ARCHIVE: new >> > :END: >> > >> > But if org-adapt-indentation is nil, it will be like: >> > >> > * Heading >> > :PROPERTIES: >> > :ARCHIVE: new >> > :END: >> > >> > and I remember that behavior before the introduced change was that >> > properties were intended, which does look nicer for properties. >> > >> > But I definitely do not prefer cursor to come indentend after writing a header like: >> > >> > * Heading >> > C >> > ursor on C >> > >> > >> >> Sounds like you want the 'headline-data value for this variable. Please >> check the documentation. > > If I set `org-adapt-indent' to 'headline-data, I get that same > behavior that after pressing ENTER on headline line, position becomes > indentend. So it does not make it right. > > My favour was the behaviour how it was before introduction of > indentation change: > > - after headline, cursors went to beginning of line; I find it > usable, as that is where I write text. > > - if I ever wanted to enter properties with C-c C-x p, those were automatically > indented, > > But OK I can personally get used, especially that I these months avoid > using any properties in Org mode. > > > "GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.17.4, Xaw3d scroll bars) > of 2021-05-02" This is exactly what headline-data does. I suspect what your running into is electric-indent-mode and you need to turn it off to get the behaviour you want. So set org-adapt-indentation to hedline-data and turn off electric-indent-mode and you will get the indentation style you are after. The issue here isn't that org-adapt-indentation changed. The issue is that the effect of this setting changed when org mode was updated to be consistent with the rest of emacs and honour electric-indent-mode, which is enabled by default in emacs. Previously, org ignored this wider Emacs default setting. The poll is to decide if we should change this long standing default due to the side effects from enabling electric-indent-mode. Enabling electric-indent-mode was done to make org mode consistent with other Emacs modes, so disabling it by default would be inconsistent with Emacs defaults. I'm not sure the full impact of enabling electric-indent-mode was realised at the time. With org, I think the general principal is to try and have defaults set to the 'least surprising' value, particularly for new users. -- Tim Cross