From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: =?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A1s?= Simonyi Subject: Re: Org citations, CSL and citeproc-el Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2018 12:15:34 +0100 Message-ID: <87k1wtor6x.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87wp0wuyyv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu7k45a8.fsf@aquinas.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54503) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eY8vX-0001wE-FW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2018 06:15:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eY8vT-0006k9-CR for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2018 06:15:43 -0500 Received: from mail-wr0-x244.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::244]:45552) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eY8vT-0006gw-6Y for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2018 06:15:39 -0500 Received: by mail-wr0-x244.google.com with SMTP id o15so8055558wrf.12 for ; Sun, 07 Jan 2018 03:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from attentoredaz (563BA048.dsl.pool.telekom.hu. [86.59.160.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d14sm6826371wre.32.2018.01.07.03.15.35 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Jan 2018 03:15:35 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: <87fu7k45a8.fsf@aquinas.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Dear All, thanks a lot for the helpful responses! Richard Lawrence wrote: > I don't know if you are aware, but we had discussed the possibility > of building something like this on the list a few years back. [...] > And here is how I summarized the state of that discussion in June: > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2015-06/msg00426.html > The upshot was that we came to agreement on quite a few points about what > citation syntax should look like, and those points have been implemented in Org > syntax in the wip-cite branch of the Org repo. I found some of the discussion, but not your summary and the cite-related branches -- these are very useful. > 1) BibLaTeX support. > 2) org-bibtex support. I'll have to look into BibLaTeX more but I suspect that both of these should be doable relatively easily on the basis of the already existing (albeit by no means complete) BibTeX support in citeproc-el. I'll create corresponding enhancement issues in the github repo. A related thought: was there any initiative to create something like org-bibtex but for CSL bibliography descriptions? It could be an interesting alternative to citeproc-YAML (see http://blog.martinfenner.org/2013/07/30/citeproc-yaml-for-bibliographies/). I've checked the citation/cite syntax in the wip-cite branch and it seems to be a good starting point for trying to use citeproc-el to render the citations. As a first step I could simply abstract away the syntax and add a switch in citeproc-orgref to choose between the org-ref and the the org-mode citation syntax (as it is in the wip-cite branch), without touching other parts of the code. Currently citation rendering is done (following org-ref's citeproc) by means of the `org-export-before-parsing-hook' -- all citations are replaced with their rendered versions before parsing. I'm not familiar enough with org-mode's internals to assess how hackish this solution is, maybe there is a much better way. One thing to consider is that I need all citations together with their positional information (order, footnote number etc.) for rendering in order to deal with disambiguation, ibid. forms etc. Another question is the syntax for specifying the bibliography to be used and, maybe, the location where the bibliography should be placed. Org-ref (ab)uses links for these purposes as well. Was there a syntax proposal for these things too? Christian Moe wrote: > Not many people liked my proposal: a link-based syntax similar to yours > but also including author and date in the link description. The idea was > to have descriptions that are both (1) human-readable even though the > citekeys are hidden away in the link path and (2) machine-readable to > determine the form of the citation (parenthetical or not, date-only or > not, etc.). This is an interesting proposal -- I like the idea of human readable citations in the unexported org-mode documents but I'm not sure what would be the best way to achieve them. citeproc-el can render isolated references on the fly so they could be perhaps used as tool-tips or overlays? Another difficulty I see is the generation of this added information -- would it be automatic? What happens if the author or the year is missing, or is ambiguous etc. If I could get hold of your parser then perhaps this could also be added as an alternative citation syntax in citeproc-orgref. Another option could be to normalize the keys to a disambiguated author-year format, but this would modify the bibliography file which is not necessarily a good idea... thanks again and best regards, András