Standard Format for Org Outlines?

Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Probably a dumb question, but is there a standard format for Org
outlines. I'm particularly wondering about the use of blank lines. I
prefer to have blank lines before my headings for readability, but I
think a lot of other people work without the blank lines.  I recently
ran into a case with BeOrg where it, in fact, removed the blank lines
when it synced my change back to my original file.  That led me to think
what is the standard format for an Org outline.  Should I expect the
tools to adjust to me or should I adjust to them?
--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Neil Jerram]

On 23 November 2018 23:23:27 GMT, David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> wrote:
>Probably a dumb question, but is there a standard format for Org
>outlines. I'm particularly wondering about the use of blank lines. I
>prefer to have blank lines before my headings for readability, but I
>think a lot of other people work without the blank lines.  I recently
>ran into a case with BeOrg where it, in fact, removed the blank lines
>when it synced my change back to my original file.  That led me to
>think
>what is the standard format for an Org outline.  Should I expect the
>tools to adjust to me or should I adjust to them?
>--
>David

Great question; I've seen and wondered the same thing. In my case it's Orgzly that seems to like removing some blank lines - although happily it doesn't seem to mind when I add some of them back again.

Best wishes,
     Neil

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.homelinux.net> writes:

> On 23 November 2018 23:23:27 GMT, David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> wrote:
>>Probably a dumb question, but is there a standard format for Org
>>outlines. I'm particularly wondering about the use of blank lines. I
>>prefer to have blank lines before my headings for readability, but I
>>think a lot of other people work without the blank lines.  I recently
>>ran into a case with BeOrg where it, in fact, removed the blank lines
>>when it synced my change back to my original file.  That led me to
>>think
>>what is the standard format for an Org outline.  Should I expect the
>>tools to adjust to me or should I adjust to them?
>>--
>>David
>
> Great question; I've seen and wondered the same thing. In my case it's
> Orgzly that seems to like removing some blank lines - although happily
> it doesn't seem to mind when I add some of them back again.

Blank lines before a headline are not significant in Org syntax.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Neil Jerram <neil@ossau.homelinux.net> writes:

>> On 23 November 2018 23:23:27 GMT, David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> wrote:

>>>Probably a dumb question, but is there a standard format for Org
>>>outlines. I'm particularly wondering about the use of blank lines. I
>>>prefer to have blank lines before my headings for readability, but I
>>>think a lot of other people work without the blank lines.  I recently
>>>ran into a case with BeOrg where it, in fact, removed the blank lines
>>>when it synced my change back to my original file.  That led me to
>>>think what is the standard format for an Org outline.  Should I
>>>expect the tools to adjust to me or should I adjust to them?

>> Great question; I've seen and wondered the same thing. In my case it's
>> Orgzly that seems to like removing some blank lines - although happily
>> it doesn't seem to mind when I add some of them back again.

> Blank lines before a headline are not significant in Org syntax.

Why does org-insert-heading insert a heading with a blank line after it
inserts the heading while org-insert-heading-respect-context does not?
Am I missing a setting?  Or have I (accidently) set a setting without
realizing it?  I seem to recall reading something about this in the Org
manual(s), but I can't find it now.

--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

> Why does org-insert-heading insert a heading with a blank line after it
> inserts the heading while org-insert-heading-respect-context does not?

It may be a bug. Do you have an ECM for it?

> Am I missing a setting?  Or have I (accidently) set a setting without
> realizing it?  I seem to recall reading something about this in the Org
> manual(s), but I can't find it now.

See `org-blank-before-new-entry'.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

>> Why does org-insert-heading insert a heading with a blank line after it
>> inserts the heading while org-insert-heading-respect-context does not?

> It may be a bug. Do you have an ECM for it?

No.  Thought it might be a mistake on my part.  How do you file ECMs?

>> Am I missing a setting?  Or have I (accidently) set a setting without
>> realizing it?  I seem to recall reading something about this in the Org
>> manual(s), but I can't find it now.

> See `org-blank-before-new-entry'.

Bingo!

Its value is ((heading . auto) (plain-list-item . auto))

It apparently only affects org-insert-heading, but not
org-insert-heading-respect-content -- I'm not sure why.  Is that a bug?

--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

> It apparently only affects org-insert-heading, but not
> org-insert-heading-respect-content -- I'm not sure why.  Is that
> a bug?

They should behave the same way, indeed. Again a minimal example would
help.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

>> It apparently only affects org-insert-heading, but not
>> org-insert-heading-respect-content -- I'm not sure why.  Is that
>> a bug?

> They should behave the same way, indeed. Again a minimal example would
> help.

My example is simple.

* emacs --no-init
* edit an org file with an outline
* position cursor at the end of an outline entry
* M-Return
** result: a new header with a blank line before and after
* C-Return
** result: a new header with a blank line before but not after

--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

> My example is simple.
>
> * emacs --no-init
> * edit an org file with an outline
> * position cursor at the end of an outline entry
> * M-Return
> ** result: a new header with a blank line before and after
> * C-Return
> ** result: a new header with a blank line before but not after

I cannot reproduce your issue. The only difference that could occur is
when you have sub-trees, since <C-RET> inserts the new headline at its
end.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

>> My example is simple.
>>
>> * emacs --no-init
>> * edit an org file with an outline
>> * position cursor at the end of an outline entry
>> * M-Return
>> ** result: a new header with a blank line before and after
>> * C-Return
>> ** result: a new header with a blank line before but not after

> I cannot reproduce your issue. The only difference that could occur is
> when you have sub-trees, since <C-RET> inserts the new headline at its
> end.

Hmm.  Tried again.  Severely trimmed my .emacs to the following:

;;
(global-set-key "\C-cl" 'org-store-link)
(global-set-key "\C-ca" 'org-agenda)
(global-set-key "\C-cc" 'org-capture)
(global-set-key "\C-cb" 'org-switchb)
(custom-set-variables
 '(package-archives
   (quote
    (("gnu" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")
     ("org" . "https://orgmode.org/")
     ("melpa-stable" . "https://stable.melpa.org/packages/"))))
 '(package-selected-packages
   (quote
    (org adaptive-wrap auctex auto-correct python)))
 '(text-mode-hook
   (quote
    (turn-on-flyspell visual-line-mode text-mode-hook-identify))))
(custom-set-faces
 '(cursor ((t (:background "blue")))))
;;

I am running Emacs v26.1 on Cygwin under Windows with Org v9.1.14.
Everything seems to work fine (slow at times, but...).  A simple file
produces the problem (and, of course, it is seen in much more complex
files).

* Header 1

* Header 2

Position the cursor on '1' and M-return will create a new header with a
blank line before and after it, but C-return will create a new header
with a blank line before, but not after it.

Not a Lisp person, but I was wondering if there is something different
in the way org-meta-return is doing its processing to determine if it
should handle a header, list, or a table?  That extra processing doesn't
appear to be in C-return.

--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

> * Header 1
>
> * Header 2
>
> Position the cursor on '1' and M-return will create a new header with a
> blank line before and after it, but C-return will create a new header
> with a blank line before, but not after it.

I see. I pushed a fix in master branch. Please let me know if it <C-RET>
behaves better there.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:
>
>> * Header 1
>>
>> * Header 2
>>
>> Position the cursor on '1' and M-return will create a new header with a
>> blank line before and after it, but C-return will create a new header
>> with a blank line before, but not after it.

> I see. I pushed a fix in master branch. Please let me know if it <C-RET>
> behaves better there.

Good try, but I think you got it backwards.  I pulled down a daily
development snapshot tarball from yesterday (not good with git yet) and
tried it again.  This time, it broke M-return by adding an extra blank
line after the header (ie. two blank lines), but still did not put in a
blank line after the header on C-return.

--
David

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:

> Good try, but I think you got it backwards.  I pulled down a daily
> development snapshot tarball from yesterday (not good with git yet) and
> tried it again.  This time, it broke M-return by adding an extra blank
> line after the header (ie. two blank lines), but still did not put in a
> blank line after the header on C-return.

Again, I need a recipe to reproduce your issue. I tried again with your
previous example and in both cases, I get:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* Header 1

* 

* Header 2
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Standard Format for Org Outlines?

[David Masterson]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> David Masterson <dsmasterson@outlook.com> writes:
>
>> Good try, but I think you got it backwards.  I pulled down a daily
>> development snapshot tarball from yesterday (not good with git yet) and
>> tried it again.  This time, it broke M-return by adding an extra blank
>> line after the header (ie. two blank lines), but still did not put in a
>> blank line after the header on C-return.
>
> Again, I need a recipe to reproduce your issue. I tried again with your
> previous example and in both cases, I get:
>
> * Header 1
>
> * 
>
> * Header 2

Hrph.  Okay, I'll dig further.  Thanks.
--
David