Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Bastien]

Dear all,

as the subject says: it would be nice to have someone overseeing Org
bugs that are reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs.

These bugs end up in the Emacs debbugs tracking tool:

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Bugs.html

They are also sent to the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list:
https://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs

Volunteering for overseeing these bugs does not mean you have to
subscribe to this list or to fix all Org bugs there :)

First of all, most users use M-x org-submit-bug-report for Org bugs,
which is the preferred way of submitting Org bugs.

Secondly, most bugs reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs are bugs
against old versions of Org, already fixed upstream.

So the idea is just to be able to answer one of these:

- "Thanks but I cannot reproduce the bug with the latest Org."

- "Thanks, I confirm this is a bug, can you forward it to the Org
  mailing list at emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?"

... and to make sure that you _close_ the bug report when necessary.

It is a very nice way to get _some_ work done for Org/Emacs while 
also being part of the Emacs maintainance larger team.

Who's in?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Jean Louis]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-11 08:18]:
> Dear all,
> 
> as the subject says: it would be nice to have someone overseeing Org
> bugs that are reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs.
> 
> These bugs end up in the Emacs debbugs tracking tool:
> 
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?package=emacs
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Bugs.html
> 
> They are also sent to the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list:
> https://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs

Process could be somewhat automated if program calculcates what is the
month and expands to 2020-12 then downloads automatically the mbox
file from:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/mbox/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-12

and conduct grep searches:

grep -i "Subject: .*Org" 2020-12

which gives:

Subject: bug#45002: gnu.org Mailbox Upgrade!!
Subject: bug#43268: Update Org for Emacs 27.2
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectanble
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectanble
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectanble
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectanble
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectanble
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectangle
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectangle
Subject: bug#43268: Update Org for Emacs 27.2
Subject: bug#43268: Update Org for Emacs 27.2
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectangle
Subject: bug#43268: Update Org for Emacs 27.2
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectangle
Subject: bug#45091: 27.1; M-x org-table-paste-rectangle
Subject: bug#42484: 26.1: org-mode should display value of links in minibuffer
Subject: bug#45147: Org-like cycling in outline-minor-mode
Subject: bug#45147: Org-like cycling in outline-minor-mode

If somebody has a VPS the report could come once per day. For me it
would be quite natural that report arrives as Org file report.

It is additionally possible to parse: bug#45147 into a hyperlink to
WWW report:

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=45147

or to directly link to mbox:

https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=45147&mbox=yes

> Volunteering for overseeing these bugs does not mean you have to
> subscribe to this list or to fix all Org bugs there :)

But one could do that as it would be useful activity. And when one
answers on bug reported through main Emacs interface one could add Cc:
to Org mailing list.

> First of all, most users use M-x org-submit-bug-report for Org bugs,
> which is the preferred way of submitting Org bugs.

Maybe they use that, maybe most users use the menu option. Let us not
forget that majority of users will never report a bug and that bug
reporting should be encouraged.

> Secondly, most bugs reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs are bugs
> against old versions of Org, already fixed upstream.
> 
> So the idea is just to be able to answer one of these:
> 
> - "Thanks but I cannot reproduce the bug with the latest Org."

Org users are not necessarily experienced users who will know what it means:

- bug? - when users do not understand the meaning they may not even
  report. If they wish to improve some feature, they will not
  report. Option in the Org menu: "Send bug report" could as well be
  more descriptive to be like: "Send bug report or feature request"
  and manual could prominently invite users to send bug reports or
  feature requests. Additionally, I suggest you add in the menu
  "Subscribe to Org mailing list" to invite users.

- "to reproduce the bug" -- this may not have meaning for new users
  same as for you. It may be also understood as rejection or that
  user's observation is wrong, thus wronging the user. It needs more
  description

- "latest Org" -- this may not be understood in the same way. It needs
  pointers how to upgrade.

Formulation should be adopted to the view point of a new user, it
could be something like:

"Thank you for your bug report related to Org mode. New bugs like you
reported get resolved in the next development version of the Org
mode. The bug as described is not reproducing in that latest
development version, so I think that it hsa been resolved. Advise is
that you upgrade your Org package in Emacs by doing: M-x .............."

Additionally in that snipper under that context that bug is not
reproducible, you should tell to user that Org bugs may be reported
straight from Org mode menu or by M-x org-submit-bug-report

Please do not tell users something like Org is not Emacs as that is
confusing, and not true. Telling them harshly that Org bugs have to be
submitted to Org mailing list is causing problems as it is wronging
users. Do not assume that user, especially one who reports through
main interface, would know what you mean.

You may formulate it better in the sense that it will be better
understood. It is a snippet or template to be used, not something to
re-type over and over again.

Consider that Org comes with Emacs. GNU/Linux and BSD derivatives
distribute Emacs. Users using Org need not know that there exists M-x
package-list-packages and various versions of Org. 

> - "Thanks, I confirm this is a bug, can you forward it to the Org
>   mailing list at emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?"

That is wrong approach and causes more work than necessary. User has
already reported the bug properly in that case. Org is part of Emacs
and user have clicked Help - Report Emacs Bug. Do not invite user to
report again or do more actions. You have got the bug? Just Cc: the
org mailing list and keep working with the bug by keeping Cc: in place
and following the bug. Do not reject user's report by expecting user
would help you send it to mailing list. Engage solving process as
report is not at the step 2, don't bring it to step 1 back. To forward
to Org mailing list is 1-2 seconds.

Instead, you may answer as following:

"Thank you for your bug report. I have now included copy of this
report to the Org mailing list: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org When answering
on this report, please use group reply option or reply to all option
so that copied emails get notified.

While it is alright to report bugs through the main Emacs interface
you are encouraged to use review the menu option Org - Report Bugs for
our faster response time."

Jean

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Bastien]

Thanks Jean, I agree with most of your points.

Are you volunteering for this task?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Jean Louis]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-11 09:28]:
> Thanks Jean, I agree with most of your points.
> 
> Are you volunteering for this task?

I am anyway answering to people. So I am already doing it. But I did
not copy to Org mailing list as I heard it is subscriber
based. Normally GNU mailing lists are not subscriber based.

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Bastien]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-11 09:28]:
>> Thanks Jean, I agree with most of your points.
>> 
>> Are you volunteering for this task?
>
> I am anyway answering to people. So I am already doing it.

Thanks but we need someone that is willing to personnally take
charge of this.

> But I did not copy to Org mailing list as I heard it is subscriber
> based.

Maybe copying the emacs-orgmode@ list won't be necessary when debbugs
can forward the email there.

> Normally GNU mailing lists are not subscriber based.

I don't know about other GNU mailing lists but I'm not under the
impression that GNU mailing lists are "normally" not subscriber based.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Jean Louis]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-13 12:53]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-11 09:28]:
> >> Thanks Jean, I agree with most of your points.
> >> 
> >> Are you volunteering for this task?
> >
> > I am anyway answering to people. So I am already doing it.
> 
> Thanks but we need someone that is willing to personnally take
> charge of this.

Explain the workflow and gather few of us as fallbacks.

> > Normally GNU mailing lists are not subscriber based.
> 
> I don't know about other GNU mailing lists but I'm not under the
> impression that GNU mailing lists are "normally" not subscriber based.

I just know Org mode mailing list that requires subscription. To all
other lists I ever wrote no subscription was required. In other words,
user may subscribe but to write to mailing list no subscription is
required. I guess there are others like Org, but I do not know about
them.

Re: Someone to oversee Org bugs as reported with M-x report-emacs-bugs?

[Tim Cross]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> * Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> [2020-12-11 09:28]:
>>> Thanks Jean, I agree with most of your points.
>>>
>>> Are you volunteering for this task?
>>
>> I am anyway answering to people. So I am already doing it.
>
> Thanks but we need someone that is willing to personnally take
> charge of this.
>
>> But I did not copy to Org mailing list as I heard it is subscriber
>> based.
>
> Maybe copying the emacs-orgmode@ list won't be necessary when debbugs
> can forward the email there.
>
>> Normally GNU mailing lists are not subscriber based.
>
> I don't know about other GNU mailing lists but I'm not under the
> impression that GNU mailing lists are "normally" not subscriber based.

Hi Bastien,

I'm not in a position right now to help with this, but there are a few
things happening which may allow me the time to help after Feb next
year. If you have not got someone by then, please come back to me and
I'll try and help with this.

Tim

--
Tim Cross