From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id IKgHJmBexF9AAgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 02:52:16 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id aC/JIWBexF8zQgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 02:52:16 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF06B9402A5 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 02:52:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36616 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZIT-0005YC-U8 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 21:52:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZHK-0005WZ-M3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 21:51:07 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]:33682) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZHI-0001Vk-IU for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 21:51:02 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id q10so9512487pfn.0 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:50:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :date:mime-version; bh=eVrbLQz9yWiA0DGgRgdGFJ+I9I7gRkFiBXailJpegyw=; b=mFXGiXcXz5KqtQgKwkskiSF9iO8+DC2JXKk3xHv9dMHnJaiVLe2LtQOoDE595UN5di fvV1HOX+t11R/1jEtXjGOVZzlf7U2Cld+YwCBZDAP0RRIm1DaRnV1Fbicjd6DlQkxpHQ lz1rOvWVKZrEzpNow92PL2Rn3D0Rpz1ar4ujnywSyQlMvJBFN88/7SDiULkNjwuHvMf4 1AnWdcDSqCyvGdBOSWwmdfIbUSt7Inlzung9ng8yfEQtjn5RaKz1J2KsVcDMO17jPAyg YXwNV/jZQlO0Z5PcGeMXNI4AHYXIlxBJ/Zawxi/pcbiksafkAq7auc2zWo8hj3f3OtO5 9lLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:date:mime-version; bh=eVrbLQz9yWiA0DGgRgdGFJ+I9I7gRkFiBXailJpegyw=; b=jz2+5SsxTLhSeHdLTgZxf7CzoEnsoz+Mh72etCYz2gjoEaKpWFrz+IJYIE32Z7OFHv OJ/hUfH6VrI/2IsbBAal7CWYtaQz/jGYc0jXr0P3JaqQ7+SkPOXsXonQ6lPWmYmPa2/o Qg37OyEDriYVWBfzq1PEPtAO3GHA7EmLqoLxY0esfRZ0tF2zrnFir/90NExB+qkw2bE3 +d1xYSUFp9vCffHPckGvNLiwxgar60l0acGoAeLBDdmZRhTlgPAS8QovP855PGaAzcrB gy6c/hl+zaFu3rDBY6267bmwtQJEBST48+eRXaa/QA02h80FMLjIcjA1ypn/C69MSWc8 uqlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZE6TirlsehsfzDKEA8311LW2hpEOzB+HLY/bgu+EAiSHRKGxh T5KnKshHIgBnZZIjFiQdIVLuACUfYFJU/g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhI0rUU5vULKHDV9ACwf4AngbfzOptaE3JvOM3T+wLFhjSuXtvynlAgPf5RxvoS3M8vMR4wA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:864b:0:b029:18e:fc45:f2a1 with SMTP id a11-20020aa7864b0000b029018efc45f2a1mr16648553pfo.58.1606704657799; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:50:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-115-131.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.115.131]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nm6sm5421209pjb.25.2020.11.29.18.50.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 29 Nov 2020 18:50:57 -0800 (PST) References: <837dq4mcb1.fsf@gnu.org> <87ft4rrhad.fsf@kyleam.com> <87r1obyabn.fsf@gmail.com> <87lfejy80o.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.7; emacs 27.1.50 From: Tim Cross To: Christopher Dimech Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87ft4ry2uq.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 13:50:53 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::429; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x429.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.98 X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=mFXGiXcX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-TUID: 7IY6QyQmSueO Christopher Dimech writes: >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:59 AM >> From: "Tim Cross" >> To: "Christopher Dimech" >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options >> >> >> Christopher Dimech writes: >> >> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM >> >> From: "Tim Cross" >> >> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options >> >> >> >> >> >> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes: >> >> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM >> >> >> From: "Gyro Funch" >> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" >> >> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> >> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM >> >> >> >> From: "Kyle Meyer" >> >> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it >> >> >> >> Cc: "gyro funch" , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: "gyro funch" >> >> >> >> [...] >> >> >> >> >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by volunteers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of asking other >> >> >> >> >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder the burden. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Is there a mailing list for abuse? If I want abuse I shall ask for it. >> >> >> >> > Loser! >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse. Name calling, on the >> >> >> >> other hand, has no place on this list. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself. If there >> >> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves. And now you start. >> >> >> >Another Gnu Goon. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, courteous, >> >> >> and helpful. >> >> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded help and >> >> >> the various responses you gave in this thread. >> >> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of respect for >> >> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way to get >> >> >> help. >> >> > >> >> > Nonsense. >> >> >> >> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful. I can >> >> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situation, but >> >> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be critical in >> >> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name calling >> >> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour >> >> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring your >> >> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should make you >> >> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensively. >> >> >> >> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how others >> >> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward. >> > >> > Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure >> > org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants >> > non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped. >> > >> > But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of the >> > org-agenda-files option. The problem is known and has been a source of great >> > frustration, that's why it was introduced. >> > >> > Daniela is quite right. If multiple people don't want to help her, that's >> > fine, many others will. >> > >> >> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how >> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the >> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and >> being respectful. >> >> We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided the >> expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means no >> personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse. >> >> We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker skin >> than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that an >> attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with the >> originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet community >> expectations, leave the community or continue without change and accept >> whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate. > > Ok, let me deal with this. But please, can we be better ourselves. Am > sure she wanted to send a report so things get better for others. She > knew how to solve the problem by only putting a list of files that exist. > > Furthermore, we are updating the manual on the available option that > addressed her problem, a detail that was most likely obscure. Some good > she has done. We are not doing the work specifically for her, > but to everybody. Agreed? > Agreed. My only issue was when things degraded into personal attacks and insults. While I don't subscribe to the belief every opinion is valid, I do subscribe to the belief everyone has the right to express an opinion, provided it is respectful. I also believe when someone expresses an opinion in a manner which lacks such respect, we need to call it out so that the individual becomes aware of what is expected or when what they have written may not have come across correctly. This is a multi-cultural community where English is not necessarily the posters native language and communication can break down because of cultural and language differences. As far as I'm concerned, both the underlying issue relating to org-adenda-files is mostly dealt with and expectations regarding communication standards have been communicated. I say mostly dealt with because I'm not sure that org *should* update the org-agenda-files list when a missing file is identified and org has not been told to ignore missing files. I need to experiment with this to clarify my position, but based on what I've read in the thread which clarified the issue, I suspect org should report a warning, but not modify the variable in a permanent manner by writing it to the custom section. It could set the variable for the current session if that is required to prevent other issues, but not store it for future sessions. I don't think the original bug report was very clear on precisely what the issue was. This is not uncommon with bug reports, but I suspect language differences may have played a role here. -- Tim Cross