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[2403:580e:91f7::124]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l7-20020a170903244700b0016bcc35000asm4374083pls.302.2022.07.03.23.54.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 03 Jul 2022 23:54:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Timothy To: rms@gnu.org Cc: Vikas Rawal , yantar92@gmail.com, bzg@gnu.org, c.buhtz@posteo.jp, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2022 12:32:35 +0800 References: <0472f849f3ae42df68b0f031d61594d9@posteo.de> <87ilt3yvqj.fsf@localhost> <877d9j3u91.fsf@localhost> <17c95e5a298c213c63b6f7ac9f05aac4@posteo.de> <87y21z2d2b.fsf@localhost> <871qzqg81c.fsf@gnu.org> <87r17q2n3i.fsf@localhost> <877d9ij990.fsf@gnu.org> <87iloyyd1y.fsf@localhost> <87r13kxh60.fsf@localhost> <87r13ao1p9.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.11; emacs 28.0.92 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87fsjhz7t0.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1034.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656917768; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=QWcOrqQmxSnbp6K8NsxxEKHHwr/UPAIjakURlBpi7LE=; b=FXjD3zMQy33XfwVXThyPE9XSRoMyqw2MK/53EXmeG1Y9GLR5AkG+Vin5fp4J4On6zLNvR3 5kA67oIRRu3j15QRnnmXr3rXF8qJq43w4iBCbnbm82/2IuOzE1WY7PYbiNKejNBDRhDtqV oeGpEX9aN4QY/rs+13ag6UO55RN8ncGL8mRiDVxY3hZOoR7hy+DAAT3wGfOOAsG45FSGrb HEZMuc1y7bkZDdSA6BeHfhakUzVWnuhWLAhnZdreo8FQF4DqNTOMNRPxI6kugyW+YCCH4/ np+0pD+JZ4hmTj6QyPvNrcLFvkZaXnvcusyr+98ksGXM7sNq2qQ0BtB2bmv15w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656917768; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=UsKtG+s/Ur25DMM9eFiqloQMU9ncnEElDyTfoRkRQfcGe3c0nIHY72SCXatHrs2OCbL1rq b3PGy/T53jOewps68xqbVSNrJ5WHUnlcmoADV1AuHm22JxmXNtUfdrWUOkGvQJEmk87ogr K1zjLvimtLeO0NMOMVfnYWWGeaBKqNDaxoc7Sn3hnw6EzcyuvZhevotgER7Ip92Zh8RwNi ecS8LQ1GxHoecjQB1L0eiwdDDvsmVM1PNK9VjtcjApPNT1QNHN53qVY0E9sjmjV+ACz380 DtvEWub4V/jzpg5wJVcYiiHobn6+0Y/XkqZhW+HAtATo//MVf8BUkGNgMc4rjg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=VL+MFHMF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=VL+MFHMF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AA20637299 X-Spam-Score: -1.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: Noj6eCgD/rqp --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I=E2=80=99ve been viewing this thread with trepidation for a while, and I= =E2=80=99ve reached a point where I feel compelled to add another 2c of mine. > It=E2=80=99s about the GNU Project=E2=80=99s moral stand (nonfree softwar= e is an > injustice, and encouraging people to use it is wrong), and what > follows from that. > > The GNU Project takes a less extreme position: if a business asks > customers to use nonfree software to communicate with the business, we > advise people to refuse to use that software. > > Sometimes it=E2=80=99s possible to do business with that company > and avoid the nonfree software. Sometimes it=E2=80=99s not. > > As this example shows, there are various different kinds of > scenarios involving businesses and nonfree software. The GNU Project > makes these distinctions and treats them differently. This is all very well and good, however in this case we don=E2=80=99t seem = to be dealing with =E2=80=9Ca company=E2=80=9D per se so much as the entire financial sec= tor. Hence, I find the question underlying this thread to be whether we should b= e so uncompromising in avoiding directing users to non-free JS, that maintainers should be effectively prohibited from soliciting donations. Forgive me for this ideological transgression, but I personally find this absurd. I hold that the GNU project and FSF should do everything reasonably possible to promote FSF and help support the lovely people who devote time = an effort into enriching FOSS. I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s news to anyo= ne that FOSS devs are overwhelmingly underappreciated and under-compensated for the work they do.= We do not do this for the money, but it dignifies the work we do and allows so= me of us to devote more time to working on FOSS. Adding significant road blocks between philanthropic individuals looking to support a project they like and the project maintainers helps no one in the= end. In this entire 40+ message thread, only two options have been listed (besid= es the FSF=E2=80=99s special arrangement) which do not direct people to non-fr= ee JS: Cryptocurrancy Which is volatile in value, regional regulation, and individual distaste. Cheques Which are a dying (and in some places dead) form of bank transfer instruction. It=E2=80=99s already been established that Ihor would fa= ce a US$200 fee when collecting a cheque, and over where I am the central bank announ= ced in 2019 that at a point in the near future the =E2=80=9Cit will be appro= priate to wind up the cheque system=E2=80=9D. Last year a neighbouring country stopped = offering or receiving cheques altogether. I think it=E2=80=99s fair to say these are not viable options, leaving acce= pting donations via Liberapay, Stripe, etc. as the only practical options. Until = then, let=E2=80=99s not allow perfect to be the enemy of good. As it happens though, Stripe seem to have open sourced all of their frontend code =E2=80=94 all of these repos seem to be MI= T-licensed. Perhaps we just need to get this to be compatible with liberajs? Alternatively might the FSF be able to accept donations on the behalf of va= rious projects and distribute the money accordingly? Should the FSF indeed be the= only organisation capable of taking donations in a proper manner, why isn=E2=80= =99t this offered as a service for the wider community instead of withholding this fr= eedom and just complaining that others don=E2=80=99t provide it? So, to sum up the situation I=E2=80=99d suggest we pick from the following = options: =E2=81=83 Accept the situation isn=E2=80=99t great =E2=81=83 Build/fund a new tool =E2=81=83 Convince an existing tool to be more libera-friendly =E2=81=83 Use the FSF as an intermediary Asking maintainers not to accept donations (or making it prohibitively difficult) is not a solution. All the best, Timothy --=-=-=--