From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id KBVgISF0qV6ARwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:33:37 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id kIHnMyl0qV4jXQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:33:45 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:470:142::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34B6F941C23 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:33:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48734 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTluJ-0003cS-BY for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:33:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55860) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTlt1-0003Yg-8d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:32:24 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTlsu-0005vv-Dc for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:32:22 -0400 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:51401) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTlrX-0003ho-H6; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:30:51 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 185.131.40.67 Received: from localhost (40-67.ipv4.commingeshautdebit.fr [185.131.40.67]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1BD726000F; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:30:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Nicolas Goaziou To: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin?= Le Gouguec Subject: Re: Reconciling org-mode idiosyncrasies with Emacs core References: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> <20200427102311.GA4976@ACM> <87mu6xtano.fsf@gmail.com> <87k120ohsq.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87blnbir01.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87o8rbmbfa.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k11yftqo.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87pnbqo74t.fsf_-_@gmail.com> Mail-Followup-To: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin?= Le Gouguec , Juri Linkov , Emacs developers , Org Mode list Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:30:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87pnbqo74t.fsf_-_@gmail.com> (=?utf-8?Q?=22K=C3=A9vin?= Le Gouguec"'s message of "Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:37:06 +0200") Message-ID: <87ees6fp8r.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.195; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay3-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/29 08:30:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.70.183.195 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Emacs developers , Org Mode list , Juri Linkov Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: -1.01 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 2001:470:142::17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [-1.01 / 13.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.49322814309586]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_FAIL(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:server fail]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:142::/48]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.18), country: US(-0.00), ip: 2001:470:142::17(-0.49)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.50)[eggs.gnu.org]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:2001:470:142::/48, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[nicolasgoaziou.fr:email]; SPF_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[-0.58968312221554]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nicolasgoaziou.fr]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; DNSWL_BLOCKED(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:from]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: hXgoBSUMBSAy Hello, K=C3=A9vin Le Gouguec writes: > Nicolas Goaziou writes: > >> For example, having RET >> inserting a plain newline would be a disaster in many locations. > > I don't think I've seen anybody advocating for that! If you are > referring to this bit: > >> (Frustratingly, org-mode uses what I think of as the "old" convention >> to use RET as "plain newline" and C-j as "smart newline with indent".) No I wasn't. I was referring to Juri Linkov's idea of providing a minor mode to disable every single Org specific binding. > Do you think a patch that > > - tweaked org-return (bound to RET) to default its INDENT argument to > the current value of electric-indent-mode, > > - tweaked org-return-indent (bound to C-j) to call > electric-newline-and-maybe-indent (the new default binding for C-j > everywhere else in Emacs, which takes care of consulting > electric-indent-mode) instead of newline-and-indent, > > would be well-received? I would love to cook up such a patch, but I > would be loath to break the workflows of long-time Org users who have > come to rely on C-j indenting and RET inserting plain newlines =E2=80=A6 It will break some workflows (mine, at least), undoubtedly, but it is a step forward anyway. Org is a part of Emacs, there's no reason for the former to follow a different path than the latter. Besides, undoing the change is easy enough, since you only need to disable Electric Indent mode. The change will not appear overnight in Org, i.e., not in Org stable's branch (Org 9.3.X), and it will be announced in ORG-NEWS. I do think it is a very welcome change. Thank you. I cleaned a bit Cc header and added Org mode list for further comments. Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou