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[97.126.68.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y19sm3844005pfn.147.2020.11.03.04.14.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Nov 2020 04:14:42 -0800 (PST) References: User-agent: mu4e 1.4.3; emacs 27.1 From: Ken Mankoff To: David Rogers Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org In-reply-to: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 04:14:41 -0800 Message-ID: <87eelaeixa.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::431; envelope-from=mankoff@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x431.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=lu28GVe8; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.71 X-TUID: VrWL0eXCL5sF On 2020-11-03 at 00:24 -08, David Rogers wrot= e... > I disagree (in principle, not just because it would be difficult) with > the idea of =E2=80=9Cexpanding beyond Emacs=E2=80=9D. Org-mode benefits g= reatly from > current and future Emacs development, and asking to standardize =E2=80=9C= just > the parts that are not Emacs=E2=80=9D would cause Org-mode to lose that h= uge > advantage. Org-mode relies heavily on the editor it=E2=80=99s built on, a= nd if > it ceased to rely on Emacs, it would be forced to rely on =E2=80=9Cnothin= g at > all=E2=80=9D instead. Not only that, but for Org-mode users being able to > count on all of Emacs is a big part of why it works. This means > separating Org-mode from Emacs is a =E2=80=9Close-lose=E2=80=9D idea. It seems like you have never used Orgzly or read on Org file on GitHub. Tho= se are not ideas, but are actual current real-world win-win implementations= of parts of Org outside of Emacs. More of these would be better. Everyone on this thread who says you can't separate Org from Emacs is corre= ct that it is unreasonable to expect a 100 % bit-compatible and keystroke-c= ompatible experience outside of Emacs. I don't think that level of re-imple= mentation was what the OP was suggesting. Again: GitHub. Orgzly. The conversation should move from "it can't be done"= or "it isn't helpful" (why so much negativity on this thread?) to + What parts can be standardized and re-implemented outside of Emacs. + How do we define graceful failure for the other parts. + How do we support 3rd-party implementation in a way that benefits all of = us. -k.