From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id kEttNBpSq2A/wAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 24 May 2021 09:13:30 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 6E0hMBpSq2A4bQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 24 May 2021 07:13:30 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F141C17141 for ; Mon, 24 May 2021 09:13:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:34568 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ll4mG-00059l-1O for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 24 May 2021 03:13:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ll4lf-00059W-8u for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 24 May 2021 03:12:51 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::331]:43581) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ll4ld-0005gk-HQ; Mon, 24 May 2021 03:12:51 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id z85-20020a1c7e580000b029017a76f3afbaso7882077wmc.2; Mon, 24 May 2021 00:12:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=napaCS23PKgBqCOlX+5F3RJxkV3XAivdljHNFCXXqHU=; b=skwlodo/q5JAYbbIwmLEm95oukM/Z052SFuEvspiDxwxxP5N8/gFKRp+gxds+AqVyE LzVP50yzmPBbHXyR4PNdR5D8Au369nHAgp1YZu40gl0WoonHzq0EqjILc6uHQwkDJSbl 3DFPvN+ZnpKV1APWVaFklJRxFncpTArhrNeapB9Ep5oeYBNu19+cCknXhW+tB7q55zcJ oSoI0ufzXLIEKmuPd3LHl6qLmmaLOIvtfFTawZuZBY7UcDqNWlLabqIJWFyrkWPFF5lP DiA7KbWfTEBQtrDXA9VoBiGQJ5fDpJ1LpNwGQ09d2jGc6wQhRFQexFkhPOzQVDyK1xuT 4lEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=napaCS23PKgBqCOlX+5F3RJxkV3XAivdljHNFCXXqHU=; b=Xb8SDC6zPteRhzL05hSFie5Nx/M/FUc6nGDsUqhbRSAyuiSf4RqoU/QQQt9Yj8AdCr 2/wXzTUgftXXGGYDHLy0J+ziPlwH7F0fXZ7ugnCFkF4sICJUfjfqG5Zq77YxkjzSTI/+ Yq2MgSbRuTcBjIoAglhhieU/AJKvtV9VqjerfUvwDhBoQ43clUs4GU9WxA2QFuLPNwPn YTWJYWoSw9Wj3vdP9bk26TpGcuWLBC1OWVPmTphNyGsWdBXTf3n1hvgCLgEhPrpAo0++ u3zEWZtzeuNovh2NhR7WO+PUhV04UwsAdlJRzlveT36ffFFGWQHj3Jn8U24U51GFI9Lm lYPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333jYyu2/qOtkfcnTeXV8O17xQaIuR/bPaejRL05xQkgdVrz1qt /g/HKdTr9zOPaZISpKwx+Bc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy75nP1WiPvmJDky0bE91/6XveKvJyR0a4/aqmY6NbkIh7748Po0D955tQtKRXFMHrLDQK6VA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:350a:: with SMTP id h10mr18797425wmq.154.1621840367258; Mon, 24 May 2021 00:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amdahl30 ([2a01:e0a:20e:d340:2ef0:5dff:fed2:7b49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g5sm7106403wmi.8.2021.05.24.00.12.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 24 May 2021 00:12:46 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= To: bandali@gnu.org Subject: Re: Sad tweet References: <953848fb-9af7-494d-90f8-faba46a7cc19@gmail.com> <8735ucajho.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:12:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8735ucajho.fsf@gnu.org> (bandali@gnu.org's message of "Sun, 23 May 2021 23:38:59 -0400") Message-ID: <87eedw7ggh.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::331; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x331.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Ypo , Jonas Bernoulli , Org-mode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621840410; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=napaCS23PKgBqCOlX+5F3RJxkV3XAivdljHNFCXXqHU=; b=F/tYwz1UaJza2vNFO7fjGHTQ0KZ/Z4atGMUyNIAkx3eYM56d6fViXztdUZs/US8Hmw5TBx ZvjMcfvFEbVSSpyFsPjXgqrPh0nqbu4u+TWqZGEWWYFiA/LF3uq5quuPk69uqI0J6NzUAu f6FHjhhQ7sh2HjL6Vs8+tc2Fmas45LKy7SGEC48IH1F7UAPIkK73N5uZgOlRnTFMNi/Bpa 7UOmrF+OTPoXjvg+r3wtzu6FQhxVR3JhqH74m4nokJKI2n4f0Z0sGZqIJq1LntfonqtBio DIfXACrMybBQA92uu3tRzqgHNmmBLj0jgRL1joLCTW0vbz2c002/c8OWxrZx+Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621840410; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=BCqO3lhvPAtWmqc2oY6Ffal/QzmWyMWhWIKCqW0Mod72mLFyMm+Oa/U6g4olXp5GnewEpW ri426M1uJmrd6c21ScR2no1qWkV3ikpSfwfhCUfRY6Kb+QecN3aQFIm9G+lyRz91HPCA69 UBEcU+oLSLdEb3zPN2jUwtEGo3M4Y2VV3qEuhtz9xyajLCWEd8lapdHNmkSV4j7WOT4/CV OqZ7pYIHxsSR6eFznkuuItAbifDe9grkFS4n7s0oHlJa0a3Ag/JVsarpWrkwahkCiUTbD+ 4YBsY2C2JaHfJEvExn2cazKPHDEAxFULACqE5P01ATjAIjmrpllP+WDZDTZUyA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="skwlodo/"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.16 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b="skwlodo/"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F141C17141 X-Spam-Score: 0.16 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 4hz+F+gv2LbU (Took the liberty of CC'ing Jonas to make sure he can correct any mischaracterization, and to show our support, such as it is) bandali@gnu.org writes: > Ypo writes: > >> I've read this: >> >> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor >> things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor >> things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions." >> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=3D19 > > Do you know if there is any more context around that? Did Jonas mention > any specific pain points around contributing to Emacs and/or concrete > things that he thinks could be improved? Last time I'd seen him post on > emacs-devel it seemed like things were going fairly smoothly with his > work on adding transient to Emacs(?). Given the timing, I'd hazard that this stems from bug#48592 (plus a few more past attempts that Jonas deems similarly fruitless, I assume). FWIW, to bounce off Amin's reply: Jonas, the patience you demonstrated in order to get transient in Emacs core was nothing short of saintly, and I for one am grateful for your perseverance. I understand how Emacs's development process can feel frustrating, especially in Jonas's position as maintainer of a popular package like Magit: 1. on the one hand, each and every attempt at contributing is met with varying degrees of skepticism and defiance, on the premise that you might e.g. break other people's code, disrupt other people's workflow=E2=80=A6 2. on the other hand, upstream sometimes adds major features which impact your package, and you wake up to lots of disgruntled users expecting you to fix something you never saw coming; cf. :extend t, the tentative binding for C-x g=E2=80=A6 I don't necessarily view 1 nor 2 as inherently problematic: for 1, we're lucky to have maintainers looking out for breakage, although the line between "healthy conservatism" and "clinical sclerosis" is blurry; for 2, users of the development branch or the latest release should expect some measure of breakage in third-party packages. As a user, watching from the sidelines, the process "works": third-party additions slowly make their way upstream after some review and a generous coating of backward-compatibility/accessibility changes; on the flip side, bleeding-edge users warn third-party maintainers of upcoming changes which can then be amended before they make it into a release. Even so, as a third-party maintainer, I assume the combination of 1 and 2 feels like a "power imbalance": one party makes the other's life consistently harder. So, once more with feeling: thank you Jonas for your patience and your perserverance =F0=9F=99=8F Disclaimer: I'm very much just a user, whose free time is mostly gobbled up catching up with the mailing lists. This reply is my interpretation of what I observe and may not be representative of anybody else's feelings on the subject.