Org without X on Debian

Org without X on Debian

[Karl]

Dear Org-mode users,

I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. 
That's why I think I do not need X.  I set up 
a minimal Debian GNU/Linux Squeeze with Emacs 23.2.1 
and the latest Org-mode version (7.8.03).  
But then I recognized that some key combinations don't work.  
For example:

- Meta-arrow keys to not demote and promote headings
- Shift-arrow keys cannot select a date in the calendar when 
  I want to add a date, e.g. with C-c C-s.
- Shift-TAB don't work
- Shift-arrow keys do not change TODO state
- (certainly more key combinations)

Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? 
Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?

Thanks!
Karl

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Richard Riley]

Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:

> Dear Org-mode users,
>
> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. 
> That's why I think I do not need X.  I set up 
> a minimal Debian GNU/Linux Squeeze with Emacs 23.2.1 
> and the latest Org-mode version (7.8.03).  
> But then I recognized that some key combinations don't work.  
> For example:
>
> - Meta-arrow keys to not demote and promote headings
> - Shift-arrow keys cannot select a date in the calendar when 
>   I want to add a date, e.g. with C-c C-s.
> - Shift-TAB don't work
> - Shift-arrow keys do not change TODO state
> - (certainly more key combinations)
>
> Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? 
> Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?
>
> Thanks!
> Karl
>

It depends fully on the terminal you are using and the corresponding
terminfo or whatever its called - a nightmare of complexity and hacks ;)
I tried this a good while back and, to my shame, simply gave up in
frustration. Hopefully you have better luck!

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Karl]

Hi Richard,

Richard Riley <rileyrg <at> gmail.com> writes:
> It depends fully on the terminal you are using and the corresponding
> terminfo or whatever its called - a nightmare of complexity and hacks ;)
> I tried this a good while back and, to my shame, simply gave up in
> frustration. Hopefully you have better luck!

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't there a difference between a terminal 
(such as gnome-terminal) and a console? I do not have any graphical 
environment on the maschine I'm working on. I use a virtual console 
of the linux kernel.

Karl

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Richard Riley]

Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Richard Riley <rileyrg <at> gmail.com> writes:
>> It depends fully on the terminal you are using and the corresponding
>> terminfo or whatever its called - a nightmare of complexity and hacks ;)
>> I tried this a good while back and, to my shame, simply gave up in
>> frustration. Hopefully you have better luck!
>
> Maybe I'm wrong but isn't there a difference between a terminal 
> (such as gnome-terminal) and a console? I do not have any graphical 
> environment on the maschine I'm working on. I use a virtual console 
> of the linux kernel.

Yes, but certain keys are simply not catered for in that console. Its
complex and I dont claim to fully understand it. But at the end of the
day this "console" still needs to read the keyboard and translate it
into emacs friendly chords.

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Jude DaShiell]

keymap I suspect is the controling factor here.  Maybe org-mode in the 
future could either load its own keys from the .emacs file or hae loadkeys 
run and run its own keymap file.On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Karl wrote:

> Hi Richard,
> 
> Richard Riley <rileyrg <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > It depends fully on the terminal you are using and the corresponding
> > terminfo or whatever its called - a nightmare of complexity and hacks ;)
> > I tried this a good while back and, to my shame, simply gave up in
> > frustration. Hopefully you have better luck!
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong but isn't there a difference between a terminal 
> (such as gnome-terminal) and a console? I do not have any graphical 
> environment on the maschine I'm working on. I use a virtual console 
> of the linux kernel.
> 
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Rainer M Krug]

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On 31/01/12 14:42, Karl wrote:
> Dear Org-mode users,
> 
> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. That's why
> I think I do not need X.  I set up a minimal Debian GNU/Linux
> Squeeze with Emacs 23.2.1 and the latest Org-mode version (7.8.03).
>  But then I recognized that some key combinations don't work. For
> example:
> 
> - Meta-arrow keys to not demote and promote headings - Shift-arrow
> keys cannot select a date in the calendar when I want to add a
> date, e.g. with C-c C-s. - Shift-TAB don't work - Shift-arrow keys
> do not change TODO state - (certainly more key combinations)
> 
> Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? Is it possible
> to make the (all) keys work?

Don't know - but I confirm this behavior, even when starting emacs in
a virtual console under Ubuntu (complete X installation)

Cheers,

Rainer

> 
> Thanks! Karl
> 
> 


- -- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation
Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:      Rainer@krugs.de

Skype:      RMkrug
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Re: Org without X on Debian

[Jude DaShiell]

I use org in a non-graphical environment but so far haven't tried any of 
those key combinations mentioned.  It's possible those need their own 
keystrokes to be configured for non-graphical use.  I prefer using 
non-graphical environments since me being totally blind those environments 
offer no benefits and with the use of orca, can be very unstable from time 
to time.On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Rainer M Krug wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 31/01/12 14:42, Karl wrote:
> > Dear Org-mode users,
> > 
> > I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. That's why
> > I think I do not need X.  I set up a minimal Debian GNU/Linux
> > Squeeze with Emacs 23.2.1 and the latest Org-mode version (7.8.03).
> >  But then I recognized that some key combinations don't work. For
> > example:
> > 
> > - Meta-arrow keys to not demote and promote headings - Shift-arrow
> > keys cannot select a date in the calendar when I want to add a
> > date, e.g. with C-c C-s. - Shift-TAB don't work - Shift-arrow keys
> > do not change TODO state - (certainly more key combinations)
> > 
> > Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? Is it possible
> > to make the (all) keys work?
> 
> Don't know - but I confirm this behavior, even when starting emacs in
> a virtual console under Ubuntu (complete X installation)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> > 
> > Thanks! Karl
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation
> Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany)
> 
> Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
> Stellenbosch University
> South Africa
> 
> Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
> Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
> Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44
> 
> Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44
> 
> email:      Rainer@krugs.de
> 
> Skype:      RMkrug
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAk8n+JMACgkQoYgNqgF2egoGpwCbBMaVGOpA1EGObUUXPVwLv2X7
> r1AAn2Ykaxo8FUdAGTxgCRdU5lHCzqVC
> =yugP
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Greg Troxel]

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I often use org in emacs inside an xterm (because the emacs is running
on a machine far away and remote x emacs is piggy about bandwidth).

Several observations:

  keys like shift-up sometimes work I think local xterm is somehow
  making a keycode and sending it over ssh.  So it seems like in
  environments where there's a notion of 7-bit ASCII character sets and
  the 8th bit being available for meta, emacs tries to cope with that.

  I use no locale settings.  But on machines with LC_ALL=en_US.utf-8 or
  some such, I find that the meta key doesn't work in emacs any more (at
  least on remote logins)

  You can avoid all those keys and do things in org other ways.  I tend
  to c-c c-s and type a new date, rather than use arrows anyway.

  There is "(setq org-use-speed-commands t)" and then 'l' and 'r' on
  headings will demote/promote.  I like this because I don't have to
  remember if I'm in an environment where shift-arrow works.


(IMHO it's a bug in org that anything mainstream uses keystrokes that
are not available in a regular terminal.  Back when I was young, we
didn't have X, and had to carry our own VT52s to school. :-)

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Re: Org without X on Debian

[Angel de Vicente]

Hi,

Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:
> Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? 
> Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?

I use it inside GNUscreen running in a gnome-terminal. I have also tried
(for a limited time) to make all the keys work but to no avail. If you
find more information on a possible solution for this, I think many
would be interested.

Cheers,
-- 
Ángel de Vicente
http://angel-de-vicente.blogspot.com/

Re: Org without X on Debian / screen, but in X

[Detlef Steuer]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:43:58 +0000
Angel de Vicente <angelv@iac.es> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:
> > Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? 
> > Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?
> 
> I use it inside GNUscreen running in a gnome-terminal. I have also tried
> (for a limited time) to make all the keys work but to no avail. If you
> find more information on a possible solution for this, I think many
> would be interested.

I've just set up my Android tablet to play nicely with screen and emacs-nox.
All that under openSuse, but that shouldn't matter too much. 

My notes taken yesterday:
***** Working remotely with emacs and org-mode
      My calendar exists as a screen session running  emacs-nox running
      org-mode running in a virtual machine in our data center.

      First I need a tunnel into the university's network. This can
      very nicely be solved with sshtunnel from the market.
      Second I need a terminal connection. Connectbot is _the_ tool.

      Third I need to input a lot of Ctrl, ESC, Alt keys. Hacker's
      Keyboard to the rescue!

      On the unix machine I have to set TERM=xterm explicitly to let
      the arrow keys come through screen. Key was to start emacs as
      TERM=xterm emacs-nox todo.org inside my screen session.
       
      The last thing giving some problems were the S-arrow combinations 
      so useful for editing dates in orgmode when accessing remotely.

      Some keybindings for emacs will help.
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f2>") 'org-shiftup)
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f10>") 'org-shiftdown)
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f5>") 'org-shiftleft)
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f7>") 'org-shiftright)
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f1>") 'org-agenda-do-earlier)
      (global-set-key (kbd "<f3>") 'org-agenda-do-later)

      (Hacker's Keyboard has an 4x4 Fn-Key layout. Just take a look, then you'll 
      understand why this scheme was chosen. )

      Btw. in portait mode Hacker's Keyboard on 35% gives 41 lines for
      the terminal. (note to self)


This setup at least works good enough for me. Org-mode, the real thing, 
everywhere at my fingertipps. 

Detlef


> 
> Cheers,
> -- 
> Ángel de Vicente
> http://angel-de-vicente.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> 

Re: Org without X on Debian / screen, but in X

[Sebastien Vauban]

Hi Detlef,

Detlef Steuer wrote:
>       The last thing giving some problems were the S-arrow combinations
>       so useful for editing dates in orgmode when accessing remotely.
>
>       Some keybindings for emacs will help.
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f2>") 'org-shiftup)
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f10>") 'org-shiftdown)
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f5>") 'org-shiftleft)
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f7>") 'org-shiftright)
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f1>") 'org-agenda-do-earlier)
>       (global-set-key (kbd "<f3>") 'org-agenda-do-later)

FMI, what's the definition of your `org-agenda-do-earlier/later' functions?

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sebastien Vauban

Re: Org without X on Debian / screen, but in X

[Detlef Steuer]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:34:42 +0100
"Sebastien Vauban"
<wxhgmqzgwmuf@spammotel.com> wrote:

> Hi Detlef,
> 
> Detlef Steuer wrote:
> >       The last thing giving some problems were the S-arrow combinations
> >       so useful for editing dates in orgmode when accessing remotely.
> >
> >       Some keybindings for emacs will help.
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f2>") 'org-shiftup)
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f10>") 'org-shiftdown)
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f5>") 'org-shiftleft)
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f7>") 'org-shiftright)
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f1>") 'org-agenda-do-earlier)
> >       (global-set-key (kbd "<f3>") 'org-agenda-do-later)
> 
> FMI, what's the definition of your `org-agenda-do-earlier/later' functions?

Sorry, must read: 
(global-set-key (kbd "<f1>") 'org-agenda-do-date-earlier)
(global-set-key (kbd "<f3>") 'org-agenda-do-date-later)    

Thx for spotting!

Regards
Detlef

> 
> Best regards,
>   Seb
> 
> -- 
> Sebastien Vauban
> 
> 
> 

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Achim Gratz]

Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:
> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. 
> That's why I think I do not need X.

You may not need it, but a lightweight window manager like WindowMaker
fvwm or maybe a tiling WM like awesome may be worth a second look.  Have
a look here:

http://www.junauza.com/2008/08/20-most-nimble-and-simple-x-window.html

> But then I recognized that some key combinations don't work.  

That can be made to work (I've blissfully forgotten how to since it's
been ages that I had to use a serial terminal line), but there is a bit
of cooperation required between the terminal emulation and Emacs (it
likely is the terminal that currently does not send those Meta/Shift
combination events to Emacs).  More importantly, using just the terminal
you will soon want to use something like screen, which again likes to
claim its own keyboard handling and adds more interference.  Which gets
us back to that point that maybe you really just want a different WM
instead of using the virtual terminal emulations.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Eric S Fraga]

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:
>> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. 
>> That's why I think I do not need X.
>
> You may not need it, but a lightweight window manager like WindowMaker
> fvwm or maybe a tiling WM like awesome may be worth a second look.  Have
> a look here:

I will second this.  I use ratpoison and have it configured so it
actually looks like a console (no borders, no labels, ...).  Maximises
the screen real estate and yet provides a full Emacs experience
including full colours (not just 16 or whatever you get with the
console) and all the various keystrokes (M-<right> etc.).

I used to use console+screen but found the limitations of the console
frustrating.  I still do use this combination when connecting via ssh from
my phone but that's for quick 'n dirty access only and I put up with the
reduced interface capabilities.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.92.1
: using Org-mode version 7.8.03 (release_7.8.03.283.g171ea)

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Jay Belanger]

>> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode. 
>> That's why I think I do not need X.
>
> You may not need it, but a lightweight window manager like WindowMaker
> fvwm or maybe a tiling WM like awesome may be worth a second look.  Have
> a look here:

If the netbook will only be used for org-mode, and so perhaps only
running Emacs, a WM might not even be necessary.  If only one Emacs
frame is used, it could probably be run on bare X.

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Eduardo Ochs]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I want to use a small netbook exclusively for Org-mode.
> >> That's why I think I do not need X.
> >
> > You may not need it, but a lightweight window manager like WindowMaker
> > fvwm or maybe a tiling WM like awesome may be worth a second look.  Have
> > a look here:
>
> If the netbook will only be used for org-mode, and so perhaps only
> running Emacs, a WM might not even be necessary.  If only one Emacs
> frame is used, it could probably be run on bare X.

This works for me:

cat > /tmp/em.sh <<'%%%'
#!/bin/sh
/usr/bin/emacs
%%%

chmod 755 /tmp/em.sh

XINITRC=/tmp/em.sh xinit -- :2.0 &

  Cheers,
    Eduardo Ochs
    eduardoochs@gmail.com
    http://angg.twu.net/

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Jason F. McBrayer]

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 13:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Karl wrote:

> Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment?
> Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?

Look at section 15.9 in the Org manual, "Using Org on a tty". There
are alternative keys for all the keys that don't work on a terminal
(on GNU/Linux, there is effectively no difference between a virtual
console and a terminal).

One other thing you might consider would be to run a minimalistic
graphical environment. Instead of using a desktop environment like
Gnome or KDE, use a simple window manager like openbox, or a tiling
window manager like dwm, awesome, or stumpwm (my favorite). If the
only application you're going to be running under X will be emacs,
there's no reason not to use dwm for your window manager, actually.

-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net |
| If someone conquers a thousand times a thousand others in |
| battle, and someone else conquers himself, the latter one |
| is the greatest of all conquerors. --- The Dhammapada |

Re: Org without X on Debian

[Memnon Anon]

Karl <ignoramus@gmx.de> writes:

> Does anybody use Org in a non-graphical environment? 
> Is it possible to make the (all) keys work?

Mhh, surprised no one mentioned it:

,----[ (info "(org)TTY keys") ]
| Because Org contains a large number of commands, by default many of
| Org's core commands are bound to keys that are generally not accessible
| on a tty, such as the cursor keys (<left>, <right>, <up>, <down>),
| <TAB> and <RET>, in particular when used together with modifiers like
| <Meta> and/or <Shift>.  To access these commands on a tty when special
| keys are unavailable, the following alternative bindings can be used.
`----[...]

hth
Memnon