From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: Re: (no subject) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2013 22:19:56 +0100 Message-ID: <87boat1tdv.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ip5199x7.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <87r4jpk4mp.fsf@lapcat.tftorrey.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36051) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UE4i6-0003fk-VF for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 16:20:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UE4i1-0008Pw-8q for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 16:20:14 -0500 Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]:62769) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UE4i1-0008OV-2H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 16:20:09 -0500 Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id p43so1503665wea.38 for ; Fri, 08 Mar 2013 13:20:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87r4jpk4mp.fsf@lapcat.tftorrey.com> (T. F. Torrey's message of "Fri, 08 Mar 2013 13:39:42 -0700") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: "T.F. Torrey" Cc: Bastien , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hello, tftorrey@tftorrey.com (T.F. Torrey) writes: > Hello, > > Bastien writes: > >> Hi Andreas, >> >> Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: >> >>> Hmm, AFAIS trouble might occur only if someone tries to load a >>> non-default --i.e. not-starred-- org-file while the default is >>> active. >> >> ... or if someone shares a file online using non-star character >> as the prefix for headlines: this file won't be processed by >> Org tools like org-ruby and the like. >> >>> But even then it's quite easy to write a guess, which might start if >>> org-mode didn't encounter the stars where expected. >> >> Org files are not just for Emacs, that's were the problem lies... > > I don't understand this heavy-handed approach. > > Plain text is great because I can do whatever I want. What I come up > with might not work correctly in other tools (or anything at all), but I > have the freedom to do interesting things, and to have my files look > just the way I want them to. > > Emacs is great because it allows me the freedom of near-infinite > customization. It has sensible defaults, but it allows me to break > things however I want. > > Org, on the other hand, seems to be moving away from that in many ways. > Headlines must start with stars because I might someday post something > on the web and it wouldn't work for someone else? Other tools might not > recognize my file correctly? A developer of some other tool might > someday have a problem? These are not good reasons for limiting what I > can do with my own Org files. > > I don't need or want supervision in how I create my files. I want > freedom. If I wanted supervision, I wouldn't be using Emacs. Have you > seen the lisp posted to the web? Somehow, Emacs and I survive that. > > Org started as a great tool that let me do cool things with my text > files. I don't want to see it change to a rigid format for me to force > my files into, where my only options are conform or leave. > I disagree. Org is a plain text format. Like any format, plain-text or not, it needs a proper definition. At least, it helps users and developers to agree on what they are talking about. As for myself, I cannot play any game if I don't know its rules. My point of view is the following: Org (as a format) definition shouldn't depend on Emacs. It should be totally parseable by any language (which is not the case actually, since syntax relies on variables defined in Emacs). IOW, we should work to make it a real plain-text markup format. > Org should err on the side of user freedom. You still have the freedom to choose what you write down in Org format. You have the freedom use, or to not use Org. You have the freedom to modify Org code to bend it to your will. IMO, freedom is totally unrelated to this subject. Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou