From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id OMT9CquEfGCgbQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:12:43 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id gEvFBauEfGCdJwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 19:12:43 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B47C1AFF1 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:12:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47630 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYCqW-0004ZE-7W for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:12:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36464) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYCq5-0004Yy-7j for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:12:13 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]:55259) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYCq1-000231-2D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:12:12 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id cu16so14677425pjb.4 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :date:mime-version; bh=FRZObEFIaWSI0ddKF0VPQkqNTkYoycfo/zztiFwDv4g=; b=PZhbndHkKDEXpiNkbPX3AogkL2ltIj/vpdKeggDtPgbA9EEk+ZX0wrVpWlTkQMFzcC ZjCy6mYLJ5ba8TqceYhTa/aYePQivJF3PFf40xcNLTNB9LHGj6HYEqaoq5D4b4nKZ7iU NvNhxmvwy7wOmOd2UpO49SKPm5toYP2ppfsRrR+mzAAAHgLS08BbXa5utVrbJIvVnlDD UsWqRt0JUbbKmI85W3lDHhVzfKQm8/l+Rk39jb3Eu1e8WBT2/CyybA5M96bJabZK9TBv pxZkvjXkeT7cKFUaid2VdoctNNBn8I5icjG2RwXrRz1wa6VwvRLYBUBsMcT9xbok9LF9 3DxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:date:mime-version; bh=FRZObEFIaWSI0ddKF0VPQkqNTkYoycfo/zztiFwDv4g=; b=cORkXGiUNSolX9hFFRXrPjJK+ZYeV+LpucCmCHW+LIeXCd7T5neQgWk0w+9bGSlfhv FDILcQ+Yq61NePg5C3kyNjZ6j2p88P2bt76bOwbdZoiQMuPzZUpDlvxQpmLqBQIPhjcC MPzVjShn4eKUtT7WMh7YmaxuisxKUDL7eDgnmvMCuUmTXPNYvmj5QaWdU/Z+bIDOjTEN WGYub86Z9MDQfhWxkJM+W0NLBBBT1/Je9ocIk3HffT/CetqxxZl959fQW+gbtLzo42G8 M2iK6NlR7qy9MlUsMdugSO5LxotA6A4UvhQNrbHXB4MK/78HFOz3Voy4Nm5h98QpmQ12 9PkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324DCxWFe9I5VWykui9Q/59s9Sf8r+2j3rOLVKT6Tl0V+dCxJvk WbXjSVdwTQSXhkVwKOBBG6o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZDvsctD11LF+lZUmL25wq4MinIVylmpDsz1LItojUCbQ7PKlFOkBetY+KHeu4jCmObJUNQw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d2ce:b029:eb:364:a2a0 with SMTP id n14-20020a170902d2ceb02900eb0364a2a0mr19680527plc.0.1618773127428; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (180-150-91-8.b4965b.per.nbn.aussiebb.net. [180.150.91.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j26sm10201297pfn.47.2021.04.18.12.12.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT) References: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> <87y2dg4hik.fsf@tsdye.online> <87h7k42nf9.fsf@gmail.com> <87sg3n4ejd.fsf@tsdye.online> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.15; emacs 28.0.50 From: Timothy To: "Thomas S. Dye" Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support In-reply-to: <87sg3n4ejd.fsf@tsdye.online> Message-ID: <87blabo1a4.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 03:12:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1618773162; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=FRZObEFIaWSI0ddKF0VPQkqNTkYoycfo/zztiFwDv4g=; b=e49fqdURKrsgzMUTQ9nkXj1HFG0g3GV7wuepsIRa8euFjoC9VB9xw8ygdePOMONEVguZJl GpuN1ljtNinrsPVrrlwX/ilbD2u3n84RpXsN3If0/G5vJSy7IZxaMkAInISMSijM2EzPm7 LQHawPOL8bugrjVsikIhqoHTIT/qVctXqXZB+1s5jMt1+vmOAVvmLHie/teFy2hMfmAPjn y/urNkgkm0ACbLUOlBQu/zwW/j3+zB0+R8BUqSRHCSRYl89hMQcrkdxQ2n/FbBi8frwdcI /6zxjZCuxhagGCiK2bAjKm+t9obvAkQTqpoVqAXfuvQ1TkjoNi91So2wTXsqTQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1618773162; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=aPs+Fv09xiX+uarW+cpo12TFZsaErlUQcPmH+cnn95IWuSB+6EJZZA71WSHXo06WkbKGdk 7lr8Nfkx6WMSaI1b/3Ox1Dn5QNiyGINXqKz8SJITeKnWyXyRbSth4Kh6Oa7/x22eIOhaDi ycP5Y7Cy+/L2xFX8si0hPSo4gIhTqcd5Ah4wk5DEPZQTEHsHO+vY6pAcT2U9P/jTqi0Uac xeVIN4SLHgIE4lIAa8Sune6nrc/2/68OvuhlBrVBUDUWkL2QSj9s+TARB9F95fYvzEwunX Xqae6lwvtabaYsWmL9p5srtnsf0GDOaA/u8jI2fdUkrnzDIEnJzLn9UFcuQVCQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PZhbndHk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PZhbndHk; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7B47C1AFF1 X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: QOxQZbSBwQ8b Thomas S. Dye writes: >> Hmmm, what constitutes noise? >> > Good question. I suppose like most words the meaning changes over time. Early > on, posts along the lines of "Wouldn't it be cool if Org mode would do this?" > were given more space than they seem to be today. Tim Cross points out a > project trajectory that appears to be common and would explain why. At a more > concrete level, I can offer several of my posts to the list :) Follow up: What should be the response to "noise", because I don't think it should be a cold shoulder. >> I think here there may have been a minor misunderstanding >> /miscommunication. Reading this paragraph I get the sense you read my >> email as complaining about a delay in merging patches, however this is a >> separate ---if related--- point to what I intended to raise: the >> lack of /response/ to patches. >> >> 1. [snip] >> 2. [snip] > So, something in between merging (or not) and appearing on the public list that > Bastien keeps? I'll try to clarify my meaning: + Patches are sent in + The /do/ appear on the public list + Months go by without anyone even replying to the patch I think it's fair to expect something along the lines of: "Not sure about this, will require further thought", "Looks good, but want to wait for X to approve", "Not quite sure why this is a good idea, please explain further", or one of a hundred other suitable cursory responses. Instead, there are currently 24 patches listed on https://updates.orgmode.org/#patches which have not received a single response. Then, there are also a large number of other patches with 1-2 cursory replies that seem stuck in limbo (e.g. [1]), with no signs of being merged or rejected (better than 0 replies, but still not good). >> Once again, with reference to my earlier paragraph, IMO slowed >> development is one thing, not responding at all to attempted >> contributors for months on end another. It is the latter which I seek to >> improve. I can, have, and will try to help with this myself; but I think >> we would benefit from a "community effort" and a discussion on what the >> best way to improve this is. >> > > What do you think of Tim Cross' suggestion that a way forward is for "new > features and enhancements to be initially implemented as add on contribution > packages rather than as extensions/enhancement to the core 'org-mode' package"? > This sounds good to me, but I'm not much of a programmer and lack the ability to > suss out its ramifications fully. I can see how it would ease Org mode > maintenance, though. I'm going to reply to Tim Cross' email, but a short version of my current thoughts is: + This feels like a little bit of a tangent from the lack of response + Many patches are modifying core functionality, and would not be suitable as an add-on (e.g. [2], [3], [4], and more) + I'm concerned that good changes could quickly make there way here and never make their way into Org > All the best, > Tom -- Timothy [1]: [PATCH] ob-lilypond: allow user configuration of header-args https://orgmode.org/list/CANwLyLNCUDEqrtLe9DxB+xZg9T-DWfmfHzrPMuqcUZLZW347Tg@mail.gmail.com/ [2]: [PATCH] Add org-meta*-final-hook https://orgmode.org/list/CAOywxZg1cBL07THLZXHBBCzm6te2vMtqnmM0w63331gybrjZuw@mail.gmail.com/ [3]: [PATCH] ob-C.el: Fix a number a bugs related to table parameters https://orgmode.org/list/874kkqao1e.fsf@bzg.fr/ [4]: [PATCH] Fontification for inline src blocks https://orgmode.org/list/87pmzf4bd0.fsf@gmail.com/