From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Alan Wehmann Subject: meta commands and Info manual Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 09:45:54 -0500 Message-ID: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_90210AFF-220D-4DEE-9F94-F590B490C732" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZCU8N-0006nB-AS for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 10:46:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZCU8J-0000EV-4F for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 10:46:07 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]:36597) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZCU8I-0000CN-Ln for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 10:46:02 -0400 Received: by iecvh10 with SMTP id vh10so135933579iec.3 for ; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 07:46:00 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org --Apple-Mail=_90210AFF-220D-4DEE-9F94-F590B490C732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am a new user of Org. I'm an experienced user of Emacs. My first use = of Org was to create a table. I soon found myself wanting to insert a = column. I looked at Info node "(org) Built-in table editor" [This = manual is for Org version 8.2.9.] and it said: =E2=80=98M-S- (org-table-insert-column)=E2=80=99 Insert a new column to the left of the cursor position. I now know that this was somewhat mis-leading, since that key = combination is bound to "org-shiftmetaright", but at the time I was = rather confused (see topic "Org keymap question" in "news group" = gnu.emacs.help). I'd recommend a revision to the Info manual, to = describe more prominently command "org-shiftmetaright" and other "meta" = commands like it (apologies in advance if there is a later version of = the Info manual that addresses this). Info node "(org) Conventions" does mention the use of the meta commands = somewhat, but I certainly didn't see it right away. I am using: GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0, NS apple-appkit-1265.21) of = 2015-04-10 on builder10-9.porkrind.org --Apple-Mail=_90210AFF-220D-4DEE-9F94-F590B490C732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I am a new = user of Org.  I'm an experienced user of Emacs.  My first use = of Org was to create a table.  I soon found myself wanting to = insert a column.  I looked at Info node "(org) Built-in table = editor" [This manual is for Org version 8.2.9.] and it = said:

=E2=80=98M-S-<right>     = (org-table-insert-column)=E2=80=99
     Insert a new column to the left of = the cursor position.

I now know that this was somewhat mis-leading, since that key = combination is bound to = "org-shiftmetaright", but at the time I was rather confused (see topic = "Org keymap question" in "news group" gnu.emacs.help).  I'd = recommend a revision to the Info manual, to describe more prominently = command "org-shiftmetaright" and other "meta" commands like it = (apologies in advance if there is a later version of the Info manual = that addresses this).

Info node = "(org) Conventions" does mention the use of the meta commands somewhat, = but I certainly didn't see it right away.

I am using:

GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0, NS = apple-appkit-1265.21) of 2015-04-10 on builder10-9.porkrind.org

= --Apple-Mail=_90210AFF-220D-4DEE-9F94-F590B490C732-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 23:14:12 +0200 Message-ID: <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43630) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHIMc-00077a-F5 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:12:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHIMb-00085D-LT for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:12:42 -0400 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([2001:4b98:c:538::195]:59035) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHIMb-000853-EU for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:12:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> (Alan Wehmann's message of "Tue, 7 Jul 2015 09:45:54 -0500") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Alan Wehmann Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hello, Alan Wehmann writes: > I am a new user of Org. I'm an experienced user of Emacs. My first use > of Org was to create a table. I soon found myself wanting to insert > a column. I looked at Info node "(org) Built-in table editor" [This > manual is for Org version 8.2.9.] and it said: > > =E2=80=98M-S- (org-table-insert-column)=E2=80=99 > Insert a new column to the left of the cursor position. > > I now know that this was somewhat mis-leading, since that key > combination is bound to "org-shiftmetaright", but at the time I was > rather confused (see topic "Org keymap question" in "news group" > gnu.emacs.help). I'd recommend a revision to the Info manual, to > describe more prominently command "org-shiftmetaright" and other > "meta" commands like it (apologies in advance if there is a later > version of the Info manual that addresses this). I think meta commands are the ones confusing here. I mean, is M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) informative? Anyway, I'm not sure to understand what puzzled you in the first place. Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nick Dokos Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHJFK-0001Zk-N5 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:09:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHJFF-0004IN-Gs for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:09:14 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:49831) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHJFF-0004GR-9Q for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:09:09 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHJF9-0007tx-Ic for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 00:09:03 +0200 Received: from nat-pool-bos-t.redhat.com ([66.187.233.206]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 00:09:03 +0200 Received: from ndokos by nat-pool-bos-t.redhat.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 00:09:03 +0200 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Nicolas Goaziou writes: > Hello, > > Alan Wehmann writes: > >> I am a new user of Org. I'm an experienced user of Emacs. My first use >> of Org was to create a table. I soon found myself wanting to insert >> a column. I looked at Info node "(org) Built-in table editor" [This >> manual is for Org version 8.2.9.] and it said: >> >> ‘M-S- (org-table-insert-column)’ >> Insert a new column to the left of the cursor position. >> >> I now know that this was somewhat mis-leading, since that key >> combination is bound to "org-shiftmetaright", but at the time I was >> rather confused (see topic "Org keymap question" in "news group" >> gnu.emacs.help). I'd recommend a revision to the Info manual, to >> describe more prominently command "org-shiftmetaright" and other >> "meta" commands like it (apologies in advance if there is a later >> version of the Info manual that addresses this). > > I think meta commands are the ones confusing here. I mean, is > > M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) > > informative? > > Anyway, I'm not sure to understand what puzzled you in the first place. > I think what's puzzling is that these are not "normal" emacs keybindings (and therefore not discoverable using the "normal" emacs mechanisms): there is an extra level of indirection that org mode imposes which you just have to know about. But I'm not sure what the best way to document them would be: maybe a section explaining the mechanism plus links (or footnotes) to go from e.g. the description of M-S- in the table section to the mechanism section. Or maybe showing the indirection explicitly: ‘M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) --> (org-table-insert-column)’ Nick From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Suvayu Ali Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:45:45 +0200 Message-ID: <20150721084545.GJ15346@chitra.no-ip.org> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHTBR-0005wu-Hu for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 04:45:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHTBN-0005ew-IP for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 04:45:53 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]:34694) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHTBN-0005er-9o for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 04:45:49 -0400 Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so107731980wib.1 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chitra.no-ip.org (ip82-139-115-46.lijbrandt.net. [82.139.115.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l13sm17829679wjr.18.2015.07.21.01.45.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 06:08:56PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote: > Or maybe showing the indirection explicitly: > > ‘M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) --> (org-table-insert-column)’ Particularly this suggestion would be very helpful, even for long time Org users such as myself. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:45:21 +0200 Message-ID: <87a8up18y6.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHfKJ-0007nL-Pp for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:43:52 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHfKJ-0005L9-2Z for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:43:51 -0400 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([2001:4b98:c:538::196]:35605) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHfKI-0005Ku-S9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:43:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> (Nick Dokos's message of "Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:08:56 -0400") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Nick Dokos Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hello, Nick Dokos writes: > I think what's puzzling is that these are not "normal" emacs keybindings > (and therefore not discoverable using the "normal" emacs mechanisms): > there is an extra level of indirection that org mode imposes which you > just have to know about. But I'm not sure what the best way to document > them would be: maybe a section explaining the mechanism plus links (or > footnotes) to go from e.g. the description of M-S- in the table > section to the mechanism section. Or maybe showing the indirection > explicitly: > > =E2=80=98M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) --> (org-table-insert-colum= n)=E2=80=99 C-h k M-S- should already show you the indirections. Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Nick Dokos Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:26:15 -0400 Message-ID: <87r3o1lygo.fsf@pierrot.dokosmarshall.org> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> <87a8up18y6.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39605) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHjjp-00063P-27 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:26:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHjjl-0004BI-RJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:26:29 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:44713) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHjjl-0004BC-L1 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:26:25 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHjjj-0007Y9-Gj for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 04:26:23 +0200 Received: from pool-108-20-41-47.bstnma.fios.verizon.net ([108.20.41.47]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 04:26:23 +0200 Received: from ndokos by pool-108-20-41-47.bstnma.fios.verizon.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 04:26:23 +0200 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Nicolas Goaziou writes: > Hello, > > Nick Dokos writes: > >> I think what's puzzling is that these are not "normal" emacs keybindings >> (and therefore not discoverable using the "normal" emacs mechanisms): >> there is an extra level of indirection that org mode imposes which you >> just have to know about. But I'm not sure what the best way to document >> them would be: maybe a section explaining the mechanism plus links (or >> footnotes) to go from e.g. the description of M-S- in the table >> section to the mechanism section. Or maybe showing the indirection >> explicitly: >> >> ‘M-S- (org-shiftmetaright) --> (org-table-insert-column)’ > > C-h k M-S- should already show you the indirections. > Yes, it does - I should have tried it out before spouting off: you very thoughtfully added the indirections to the doc string of org-shiftmetaright. Thanks for doing that and for pointing it out. If I ever knew about it in the past, I certainly had forgotten it. For my part I'm happy (and I suspect Suvayu is as well), so I guess it's back to the OP: what, if anything, should be changed? -- Nick From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Suvayu Ali Subject: Re: meta commands and Info manual Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: <20150722130311.GA1727@chitra.no-ip.org> References: <0177EA08-AD8C-4E75-AFA3-453919E805D4@gmail.com> <87egk21qhn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87y4iav5vr.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> <87a8up18y6.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r3o1lygo.fsf@pierrot.dokosmarshall.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35395) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHtg6-0000YI-Nj for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:03:19 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHtg2-0005mA-VG for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:03:18 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]:35314) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHtg2-0005lz-Oc for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:03:14 -0400 Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so162541438wib.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 06:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chitra.no-ip.org ([2001:610:120:3001:2ad2:44ff:fe4a:b029]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ym2sm2302863wjc.44.2015.07.22.06.03.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Jul 2015 06:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r3o1lygo.fsf@pierrot.dokosmarshall.org> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:26:15PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote: > > For my part I'm happy (and I suspect Suvayu is as well), so I > guess it's back to the OP: what, if anything, should be > changed? Indeed! I happily shut up :). As to the OP, the discussion towards the end of this section should cover the subtlety for a new user, (info "(org) Conventions"). WDYT? -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free.