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Wed, 21 Feb 2024 13:53:37 +0100 (CET) From: =?utf-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: orgmode Subject: Re: [proof of concept] inline language blocks In-Reply-To: <87sf1mrpr6.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Wed, 21 Feb 2024 12:00:29 +0000") References: <87msrudgcn.fsf@posteo.net> <8734tmmcnv.fsf@localhost> <87edd6ytiy.fsf@posteo.net> <87sf1mrpr6.fsf@localhost> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 12:53:35 +0000 Message-ID: <87a5nuyo4w.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=maciaschain@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.12 X-Spam-Score: -8.12 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CF25C7DF00 X-TUID: OUNelZbd6qjx Ihor Radchenko writes: > Juan Manuel Mac=C3=ADas writes: > >> Ihor Radchenko writes: >>> This is a good idea, although it would be better to make this new markup >>> element within the framework of more general inline special block we >>> discussed in the past: https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87a6b8pbhg.fsf@= posteo.net/ >> >> Fun fact: the local branch is called inline-special-block, because I >> originally had that idea in mind when I created it. Then, halfway >> through, I doubted whether it wouldn't be better to have a specific >> inline language selector, whose use would be as direct as an emphasis >> mark. So in the branch there is also a "proto"-inline-special-block with >> similar syntax: &foo{}. >> >> I opted for the -language-block version because, as I said, its use is >> very 'direct' and covers a common need to segment multilingual text >> within the paragraph. > > My main point is that we should use the same syntax with inline special > blocks. Similar to how #+begin_verse uses the same syntax as special > blocks. > > We need to finalize inline special block syntax first, and then talk > about special cases like inline language markup you propose. As I already said, in my local branch I have both elements created, based on the same syntax: - language block: :lang{text} - special block &type{text} the latter would be exported, for example, to html as = text or to LaTeX as \type{text} I like the syntax because it is minimalist and not verbose at all. That could serve as a basis (at least it is good to have a starting point, because otherwise everything will be diluted in discussions). Then we can start thinking about whether to add options and how to add them. >> I think at the time we also discussed whether or not it would be a good >> idea to provide the inline special blocks with options and attributes, >> like their older brothers. And how to do it. My biggest concern here is >> the (let's say) latexification of the paragraph. I mean, one of the >> great things about Org versus heavier markup like LaTeX is that when org >> wants to be verbose it uses dedicated lines, but usually keeps the >> paragraphs clean and readable. I think that any element inside the >> paragraph should tend to be as "transparent" as simple emphasis marks. >> >> I remember that there was also discussion about puting the options >> outside the paragraph, using some type of identifier. It doesn't seem >> like a bad idea to me, but I think it adds an extra complication for the >> user. It would be very tedious for me to write like this (even more >> tedious than writing in LaTeX). > > I still believe that we should /allow/ options inside inline block-type > markup. This is often necessary in practice. For example, I recommend > studying > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikitext#Templates_and_transcluding_pa= ges > and how they had to use ugly |... extensions to provide options. > > But it does not mean that users /have to/ use these options. In fact, we > might design the inline language blocks to ignore options. The wiki language is for a specific purpose, and I wouldn't consider it a lightweight markup language, although it is certainly less thick than html. Actually I'm just expressing my concerns and doubts, I'm not objecting to anything. I remember reading in the pandoc issues, a long time ago, similar discussions every time they talked about extending the markup. I don't know if it's a good idea to stick to a certain point to preserve the nature of a lightweight markup language and accept certain intrinsic limitations instead of providing options that probably have very little use or can be resolved by some export filter. I don't have a definite opinion, I'm just raising my doubts. Although I really value simplicity and minimalism. --=20 Juan Manuel Mac=C3=ADas -- Composici=C3=B3n tipogr=C3=A1fica, tratamiento d= e datos, dise=C3=B1o editorial y ortotipograf=C3=ADa