From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id CEwME5u9sWHxgwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 09:26:03 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id KOzDDpu9sWGZBQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 08:26:03 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B679412FD8 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 09:26:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42222 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvEkb-00052l-6V for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 03:26:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvEju-00052c-7J for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 03:25:18 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:60889) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvEjr-00079H-WA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 03:25:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1639038304; bh=0KuWtuCnsuw52eCxw5+Sz/luGV4YCyrZoMfw7WBjVq4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=eDGrLTI9Q/RnvDGvJwicsgdOpMePdEA3tjTmHw19gAp8/nWXhSxS9o6dLsWxKuZD3 bF4x2EBzfSMl9WXOafPK3mulM2wPJLJK6cxLVC4vNT12QKhKvBivGk77wvYuZkZ/8W 3nsHcgmMEnCao42otswnTReP2uoKCZlZaVWqJ5J4= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.27.113]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MiuOk-1mIa4S2L5Q-00f99K; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 09:25:04 +0100 References: <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> <87lf0uu4mj.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 09:12:30 +0100 In-reply-to: <87lf0uu4mj.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <878rwuuqw1.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VAdI762bInlfHz2ec+mUzmxIJHkkm5M371jJcdd1/nx5kR/fN19 PMfl0UIIJ0JUJh86IfJY+i/0LonO3ZENjJdWuafYk1FCXpe9dWc4N5qN8XjTKG3i01HXUni zFMTk7LTAOxfZcGhYpccTlzE3rLQ0/ly/UWA/sMnLYTXYC/6176nuoJWDkeo3t9z5YgqNFL seSDxno3vVhBrHyZ+x35g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jMHzqxghJVA=:jm8dKZOQs1i+MABrllZVdB eDZUl+iIN0W+Y9tXQBp4IuLvdyGtwuOExT4wucvuIm6KJ/2Eeh8wdDWXGQtEeBcFU2UwAAbd+ 9ExunNaVnMRH+N4ZjlQz2PI99wBOBd/gzOODTR5wJsnn3Qbnjhl+8rNKrmH8SvGb8VyFaNuua iHjK4bQF/iyISmIAPH8ghYl1tl61zbV+2co8NTm2YOQfNAHyp2HPAoqYB6cvNOgEl1paP6Vtm ypgt91nDCQ2S40FAruBV28in+Io2hMl4YK0WgzEIvb7TIRb+YOgLFGh53FF0eEzvvINZNFzNq T7ihajJNLaGr/nG7jTlNA04VGXgQhjOnwVn3dY7s3tgNakFkTfWRdC/7x5el8M9YXbGI/NRCj yRRUp4Z7Ly2YFnW4m7ddRfVKNZcKZBFpFvn534vFp9LL4xS6j2GXRktEPxLNkkNHRfv5p8Lec jVWiRwRJaxZAIZNY0nG+aHhzyDJ5s3WglR3HRiSwdhRdoRuyxmWCw3XgPpFkZQNUg+Ojhd3L3 68b2/+oPv7XCfDsiGZDlmR/X4qcA14UTHQqI8kxwH/OGJ2kaMeezQu5hWauVLndIYQ3kIZtU1 L1tPI7P+BD7HTnAyVHtDvfc1kUsERoONBls9RXAIxDV4Pc9M609NDDyZL/7TfuDyPftWg01Yh 1cIB+BDpUWrHWzVhNBBv5e16soDgHN2ipaZsmT5stNeDIEPBakaQwbKv/Z7OJGg69giprpWau 3ybAcp+SDrvIQkP5cPoX7ndPH4CuELaL6u/Kf9azvCYKNIpix2Ks9sbYOZbaleAf+4uL2PFN0 JXonUimFR/qwB85w7iU64tQwuVSai9R6h0X1WL3N6GCKKeEhdRQJOLHizb5wSumsCj2D/2tie a3zPyUr+oFRRkMTVpT1o9v5zXHvut8cklaY46mo1nMddv9SNZTO9h4Cj1MHM4/4fkGl4bFFrs rL14fqU+LwRtKAAL/AtJRR7uXqy0lBh0MsEfTUi9kI8wO1+f5Br5Ns/4NRxDqSf9CVMDVN0zs nX9g2DDM2MLuP5jt6DzuBC8Y9PXLjqpCorLx8NM1whaCbTc4L/zQ+4sFwoJn8DnoVKENtkTwW cJB42y0i1dLOd4= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.11; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1639038362; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=0KuWtuCnsuw52eCxw5+Sz/luGV4YCyrZoMfw7WBjVq4=; b=NzOSfgn5ryAhA+l/knlHnKGKZGEJb+jU2o1IRW1HsbknN10Qve+olAJ24j+iJ+KGv6/QEB Ael75+DwDMauMNJKmcNSfo32s8HPmt5Sj9te4XGK9sR3T3MVuNqa4aQnYgfiF/QivFHfL9 rFeYMtJyh/ZbTvwxo3dirwLJad5McV4y64zadQEJrOzFSpeIVEgWuASsuIFQqrLVogoOcJ V6vktimuAfSii5WBaReNpoC9wtvflOgPoFEhDHjrm9ZZ09LerSUIR0QYo7anSmLI9yBely LqBlccq00doSspgWE/6OFLXNz0ICyuRWTDZPqNgTFBlARY4dW0DiJR8kNqZNTw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1639038362; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=j6u7yjmObz1xpzcHC98p8dcmUlodJ6kFGg0Yl4wBfmAw3a8IlaDKYFvJ7V9+Awt5EcqIuv X/F+c6zhM9WRHwfqQwbECCATKS60fjMD7unOP9OLE1fb6Q7ZgMiyh24BsJ443VFNJQTRLF 9H4kjCeZEGLitX78WIIFMDOdvZNyoHshUaz5C41pjqzqsHKjnc8K2Q+jqCIKd2Zf3TQTxg ovA4pFvH4DxSEYvLpi8vUtLT0DpLqptod02rIlHwHrbzlWXt1zH+vPZCRkRxT7pn5Ex+Rg 9qCwWoECGgpyYIqI9afglHMtVRgurx8qhykLIsI20wLCiA1bMEp0uO1ERDJupA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=eDGrLTI9; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=web.de (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.95 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=eDGrLTI9; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=web.de (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B679412FD8 X-Spam-Score: -2.95 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: HrX+O/2UQvG3 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Cross writes: > Russell Adams writes: >> That Org can also be used to export to other formats is both a >> blessing and a curse. Org can only do high level constructs in the >> languages it exports to, and really should only be expected to do just >> that. It's a paper thin macro or template over a much more complicated >> document language. =E2=80=A6 >> The exporting is the difference in expectations. Org's lightweight >> markup is quite simple, and the documents it produces should be as >> well. This is much like the original HTML specification. Look how >> complicated it is to write HTML now with CSS and Javascript emulating >> mundane functions after decades of bolt on "standards". Yes, the language-specific hacks are outside its scope. When I do #+latex: =E2=80=A6 or @@html:=E2=80=A6@@ I am in the export formats. What should not happen is that=20 >>> Please do not make org-mode volatile.=C2=B9 >> =E2=80=A6 >> I think our maintainers have done an excellent job of minimizing the >> impact of any changes. Yes, they have. That=E2=80=99s why I wrote that it is a too rarely highligh= ted strength, that Emacs is stable. >> However I only export Org to be backwardly compatible with itself, not >> the languages it makes exports to. One of the big strengths of org-mode is in its integrations. When the languages change that it exports to, it cannot do much. But where they don=E2=80=99t, an update of org-mode should not break the export. From=20the expectations-side, that=E2=80=99s the extended 80/20 rule: 80% o= f your users only use 20% of the features=C2=B9, but they don=E2=80=99t all use th= e same 20%. So everytime you break something that=E2=80=99s not in the core 20%, y= ou lose some users until only a small core is left that actually did not use anything outside those 20%. =C2=B9: for org-mode it migh rather be 5% :-) > As you point out, the big benefit of org mode is that the files are > plain text. This means you will always be able to 'fix' any issues which > arise from change. It might not be convenient and you may be frustrated > by such change, but you will likely have a much better outcome than you > would with any other document formatting system which is not based on > plain text.=20 Yes =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s also one of the reasons why I=E2=80=99m using = org-mode. It=E2=80=99s awesome integrations and tooling are why I use org-mode instea= d of markdown or asciidoc or similar. It binds all my work in Emacs together. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmGxvV8QHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD6yEIEACRqjr81IF104mxgIku9kmD3qe+tybe7SHh ouVgRoKivlsq/O7P9pA3bqAmSR2ZPTgPeFCchDc9/CYtpTM/wDgrBxfUzk6jBfew lzoMpVnpnnYo7BMJ9etLPJqRATJMe9slOMTJcqmd7h0WMI/Ysr/HEX81FjvdabWq 8unOV00XVt//Z+nmAhxS0fh8Un3MR1j7fFg9HIxOgYeDLgDZCuvFyVMsXOz+1Aeg epNHiWLLetL+N42pJqqtEN7Kdsr2UpvKvgQpU3vfC3cyEyPMKVcPq/y/0NT5wEbx kh4v9xNw/cPseE/wLpuYtruvJzqvX4ebGiCvBlWopSBXiclry51pn7cb/5f/R/aL bJo8tZwIWjT6E/p62TdkkRvb3+GFeIxL/9ApUlDpxOfm4kajK+28159iEiuzUnwC TkPIGo1ZdfkRlHuoDqQNcEDZpOsRTGs49c3/uvaWGT8coYzlfyoWA11l4ka39hw1 viNIgqZD7tzosIeOe6Z6ZuHKnxCMQRnxR6oRaGhdiaXGqZHlOADUgwVuOy0b5O4E aQhr9bZsQaUICxRvCKziXzAAydZPYstuwALCiaA8H5F9ZEPg0tZH7H6Cs5U7MSks TacF7efC3D248m3jncwBFBOuQ16axmtU0dri7KRSRsjx53Ek/usU3R24reH3J/Xl q4gUUO/pr4jEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmGxvV8QHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSLFxA/99wcGC1//E6X1FRRR74XUUO/Uu nxveoQ9CQhazV6xKRtKdr94Tfwdxp9BPCLqoBzMU89eN8d+LSOnshynr6uKFlpwT pAColnm8c1mhVg1ToMhpo3q6d7BOYQfEqpGWxA5gngkuJMqLPIge0/UcvbX9+zMQ 4YYItOGpNsLFpeNLVg== =es3K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--