From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id mO1iA5o5MWOsagAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:33:14 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id GLxLA5o5MWNfAQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:33:14 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08147E384 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:33:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48046 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ocgjv-0002CX-R0 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 01:33:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33642) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ocgiC-0002CL-0S for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 01:31:24 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46540) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ocgiA-0005XN-Qi; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 01:31:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=oBao+H30oKQkFme5fr09bYJEnyo/6aQmaQX3T+QlMt8=; b=gypT1Ie7VpveX87nAlpt xr3yPyLSg/OJjOVOftj3UTE6n4bmBP7yEXincEB7MTIwzJsmYrs54twcA6w2mw9S0sP0P6g2DFiiQ 0HUaIkVncuKXich2chlzuHMNTHkA2E3olTy71Zsv+I9DFMH63jn6kzk0qz4Tn8H0oK3Qq6Gpi3QrK B3yZLqeBLmzhI/55+7z9VrAyQiBZlFKHEARyKA34Y1LB2kXl8TensJ9g2IyNn6BtsiobNNKIhwtLQ 6ElSzufh+ty545I89nQnFTXcZAKt9r7ZWgYQp8A4EvDym66tCvnnb6aeweYvy2MyFNyxKDSv/mjUT qtnrH3tO7/8pUA==; Received: from 96.52.140.77.rev.sfr.net ([77.140.52.96]:41884 helo=hal) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ocgiA-0005qn-9E; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 01:31:22 -0400 Received: by hal (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 85BD21E0413; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:31:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Bastien To: Timothy Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko , Russell Adams Subject: Re: IM dev discussions? In-Reply-To: <87czbjelp8.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> (Timothy's message of "Sun, 25 Sep 2022 19:18:46 +0800") Organization: GNU References: <871qs6ygmv.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkrasnla.fsf@localhost> <871qs6li9l.fsf@gnu.org> <874jx2wqgi.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> <87czbq7ach.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsgmqu1h.fsf@localhost> <87r105xicb.fsf@localhost> <87a66ra45s.fsf@localhost> <87mtar2yph.fsf@gnu.org> <87mtaq95sr.fsf@localhost> <87bkr61tmw.fsf@gnu.org> <877d1u4d13.fsf@localhost> <87bkr3vhpn.fsf@bzg.fr> <87czbjelp8.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 07:31:18 +0200 Message-ID: <878rm6zopl.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664170393; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=oBao+H30oKQkFme5fr09bYJEnyo/6aQmaQX3T+QlMt8=; b=ISSiL3qwklVbSdBpHf9I1uWfT1BFvQ6VUdb4oq6VPcwiJ+3du+Mjp42ktqzMqDUl5TfiTF yPFIcK3fv8DJx3VQbn4EJ59xUy9gqDgmxx3BWlYviU1fnMqJFB/CY5NRgF/Kh7kn+4+ADN uqInXU0A1a5LoJmgQH4MF3fCGzevTRODdIG7g2Zf2qtMZml5vt2v3XFXNNpLesWAJWpxBn esUprC0YrrIbK0M47yUxZCLfwQ4tbMouW8G+H7w7RJdr+6zckY+7L0SMQ4/+296uE3eKyf AmN9eCnEIPrBJ2Yt3KiVZaaVZLgWaxWTxVTMQKSNt+rGi1SYSvaZDpVeqocwJQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664170393; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=DLpY5HH+KBVcrUhxs0DJ5Up8sBeP7H+B9PG+nafgvPlyodtz6u0KcODkCu+IouUa4R3FAn d5+fF7gUy3a1+1a+esSYF3fDeni8q98lsEPE2+cR1+kHHmxuVy2JNEJdD2lAKTyGXKkg2M sXzPpdtpMJ0V23+GdMxg1+EIJEy8DqkIwEyGJSHtwAGcZFYIPwSq3NpLMe2mbw3/tFuMqB il3X+ehU073/LVLwnAFXQgH8tmBPY5LPP+tYAQb91guNYYRLoqZqIvekqg/BwXSV1l5dwI FBtapT2rVcVfmyfD081duidC/ajg+wiHnD/Tni/puAOtBywKelqVr8krFDaIDw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=gypT1Ie7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.64 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=gypT1Ie7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 08147E384 X-Spam-Score: -4.64 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: RsU/5D2zyY+E Hi Timothy, Timothy writes: > Both these things may not come together, or at the same time. For instanc= e, I=E2=80=99m > currently talking to someone on the Doom discord who has a few potential > improvement to Org in the works, and the main barrier to us hearing about= them > is their nervousness at sending an email in to the Org ML. We probably can reassure them and teach them how not to be afraid to go public and send an email to this list. > Like it or not, I have the distinct impression that >> to be fine with working by email, the old way. > is a much greater ask than it used to be. Some people may come around wit= h time, > but for getting started at least I think there=E2=80=99s quite a bit of v= alue in having > less =E2=80=9Calien=E2=80=9D way of getting started. One could argue that= by neglecting > non-ML/IRC ways of interacting with the Org project we are accidentally s= eceding > territory to non-free services like reddit, stackexchange, and co. Let's imagine we set up a Discourse instance on forum.orgmode.org. It will probably attract users that don't really like/want to interact through a mailing list, and maybe some of them will prefer this option rather than posting to reddit, SO, etc. It is a good outcome per se, and a way not to cede too much territory to non-free services. But then at some point we will have two problems: we will need to spend energy encouraging these Discourse users send their patches to the mailing list and people on this ML who are mostly here to help others will have to split their time and attention between the ML and forum.orgmode.org, because both will be official support channels for the Org community. To sum it up (1) I don't think we have the resources to compete with non-free services like reddit (and should accept that they work as users-to-users support channels) and (2) teaching users how to send a patch to the mailing list is something we will have to do anyway at some point if we want to help users become contributors. So I really see why a Discourse instance might be tempting but this will surely break something that works okay right now: this list as the place where to keep track of Org's development and contribute to it. ... For french-speaking people, we have both a ML and a forum. - the list: https://lists.sr.ht/~bzg/emacsfr - the forum: https://emacs.gnu.re/public/ We advertize both equally on https://emacs-doctor.com. It is okay to have both here because they are not competing with each other, they are just places for discussing things. Interestingly, the ML seems more active than the forum, but I would not mind seeing the forum become more active than the list. They are just places to discuss Org topics in french. The difference with considering list.orgmode.org + forum.orgmode.org is that none of these places (FR-ML and FR-forum) is "the place were we keep track of Org's development and where we encourage and teach people how to contribute"... that's what matters in this discussion. All best, --=20 Bastien