From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Adam Porter Subject: Re: [RFC] Document level property drawer Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2019 19:51:22 -0500 Message-ID: <877e5i66id.fsf@alphapapa.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34051) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iGuly-00031M-0a for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 20:51:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iGulw-00036n-Po for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 20:51:41 -0400 Received: from 195-159-176-226.customer.powertech.no ([195.159.176.226]:41920 helo=blaine.gmane.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iGulw-00034B-Iy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 20:51:40 -0400 Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iGult-000ao9-Aa for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 02:51:37 +0200 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Gustav Wikström writes: >> In Org, some keywords are special, like #+CATEGORY. For many years, >> such keywords have had file-wide effects regardless of their placement >> in the file. IIUC, your proposal would change that, and that would >> still be a major, breaking change. > > This seems disingenuous. To be disingenuous means, e.g. Not ingenuous; wanting in noble candor or frankness; not frank or open; uncandid; unworthily or meanly artful. It's not friendly to imply that of me over a difference of interpretation of Org syntax and traditions. I hope you meant something else. I wouldn't spend my time studying your proposals and offering feedback if I didn't want what's best for Org and its users. > In no way is this a major, breaking change. No document you have > today will break by the introduction of this. The only thing changing > is if you *actively* create a document level property drawer and > choose to enter a property there that you already have defined in the > same document, using a property keyword. There is a bigger picture which you seem to be ignoring. Org is distributed with Emacs itself. Emacs versions are long-lived. People use old Emacs and Org versions for years, because few people build and install Emacs themselves, so most users use the versions included with their OS or other distributions. Your proposed change would introduce a major change in the way document properties are interpreted. This means that the same document, when used on Emacs/Org versions before and after this change, would be interpreted differently. That's breaking forward-compatibility between versions, ones which will be in the wild for years. That decision should not be taken lightly. > Keywords that previously had file-wide effects will continue to have > that. That's not removed. So you must have missunderstood something > here. I did not misunderstand; I am looking from a different perspective. In your proposal, line-based keywords can be overridden by document-level property drawers, while they currently are applied to the entire file regardless of any drawers. That is a major change. >> > If you think of the document as an outline, something Org mode is >> > all about, it makes sense to also think of things before the first >> > headline as "node level 0". And with that way of conceptually >> > thinking of the document it makes perfect sense to have a property >> > drawer fixed at the top - in the same way as it is required for all >> > other node levels. >> >> What you're proposing is actually a fundamental change to the way Org >> documents are interpreted. Org documents are not currently an >> outline, just a series of elements which may include an outline. >> Text and elements before a first heading are not part of a node, >> they're just text and elements in the document. > > I don't agree here. What I'm proposing in this patch doesn't change > the fundament of an Org mode document. I'd rather say it enhances the > fundament! Since the outline to a large extent is the fundament! The > following quote is from the documentation - Chapter 2, Document > Structure: > > #+begin_quote Org is an outliner. Outlines allow a document to be > organized in a hierarchical structure, which, least for me, is the > best representation of notes and thoughts. #+end_quote Org is a collection of Emacs code built on top of Outline Mode, which interprets plain-text files in a certain way. Since the beginning, such files have been interpreted such that content before the first heading is not part of an outline node. Your proposal would change that. For better or worse, it is a major change that has implications which you seem to be unconcerned with. > Thus, saying Org documents are not currently an outline again feels > disingenuous and at this point I struggle to take your comments > seriously. As a fellow Org developer, I empathize with the work you have put into your proposal and its code. However, it would be best if you would consider these issues impartially. Like it or not, there is a wider "ecosystem" around Org today, and it is growing. Your proposal would have effects rippling downstream for years to come, and other people would have to spend time making changes to accommodate them. Thus, the wider implications of your proposal should be very carefully considered. Org is a big, and growing, project with thousands of users. We have a duty to take these considerations into account, so major changes, like your proposal, should be taken very seriously.