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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1657092156; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=mjsdoE+P8IGiIPsp5pr4UG/tJz0Wnt5XQiwJkkL9N1A=; b=lMCSfts81lYH5YMNyEAntQgJ9S4ivNqoQyrBh+JJPOKJ08iAVM0q5+NNi0gqJWrT+n/NtQ T/fUNwFBJO/wwnMjGaQZCPv7AzzJj4K90VVTYhwnOTRTAOnT4INsb8fC68NYwVc21sN6fR 48hazmHdyngEIeFCD2xHBhjkFLqUTo1opxuNYa5I7oLrUFKSXmfimDAx3QpdbFIrz28wMw 9zdySGlBsv6f46M0TjzS+Uf9CQ4ojWjY+HwnKfBQc2R71eXtQeAk8GIVyYQmKp3sYbGX9+ DmkwyLXwIU4Ij+fhyygX0RQtrQIP5zpaJOuIQzX46Dx7IUrhPeuQzaDAKIVIVA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1657092156; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=d3uAPSvuZOG9PQTmVRbg0h1MLrWOhUcvZdMwWsTBk1vWwk8qgeDILt5n+878M1ub5M4VlE ce7R8+HMTTqKRBEpEk12vQJ+Dpd4fiamDB0yn4BsuklW2YT23soC5INnZtZEPHGwFKMw2N hlKTgJpJN2AQYVkpE/KTXuF0P0hRmkGdn6nkKuBFpbq3+cIvj1BkJ07iKOrKC8h7KgQkmt Jxh1QXUcbNR3AI7f72d5DIaFDpMIz1j8xVS/o4xeXnAN1+unKJNmYViC7g9FjP4LJTHDk+ fKHnyZcnc78iVpP/dz4lNsiXTfPmwlAKHy3GLGxRAWI1GuYOS22liYm3m/+Tuw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=Zrr73jY4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.95 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=Zrr73jY4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F0697116AF X-Spam-Score: -7.95 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 3LgyC/LqL24x --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard Stallman writes: > > GNU Taler requires an intermediary to clear the coins. > > I am not sure what that means. Could you state in different words > what job that "intermediary" would do? > > In fact, the Taler developers are hoping that banks will play two > roles: issuing Taler tokens to spend, and redeeming those that people > receive as payment. That=E2=80=99s when banks take up Taler. Before they do, any intermediary c= an take that role and use Taler to pool money so it can be sent in larger regular transactions. > I don't know whether that is possible -- I suggest you talk with the Taler > developers about it. It=E2=80=99s one of the use-cases in their documentation, so I expect that = it should work. > > To take up criticism before it becomes a discussion: While Github is > > annoying, you can read it without running proprietary Javascript (I j= ust > > checked that by opening it in eww), and you can interact with it using > > email. > > See https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html for what's > wrong with Github. Some actions, such as creating an account, appear > to require running nonfree JS code. You can add this to the reasons:=C2=B9 https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2022/jun/30/give-up-github-launch/ I=E2=80=99m already trying to find ways to get out, but depending on the integrations used, that can take quite some time. =C2=B9: # Give Up GitHub: The Time Has Come! by Denver Gingerich and Bradley M. Kuhn on June 30, 2022 Those who forget history often inadvertently repeat it. Some of us recall t= hat twenty-one years ago, the most popular code hosting site, a fully Free = and Open Source (FOSS) site called SourceForge, proprietarized all their co= de =E2=80=94 never to make it FOSS again. Major FOSS projects slowly left S= ourceForge since it was now, itself, a proprietary system, and antithetical= to FOSS. FOSS communities learned that it was a mistake to allow a for-pro= fit, proprietary software company to become the dominant FOSS collaborative= development site. SourceForge slowly collapsed after the DotCom crash, and= today, SourceForge is more advertising link-bait than it is code hosting. = We learned a valuable lesson that was a bit too easy to forget =E2=80=94 es= pecially when corporate involvement manipulates FOSS communities to its own= ends. We now must learn the SourceForge lesson again with Microsoft's GitH= ub. A parody of the GitHub logo, walling off user rights and demanding payment GitHub has, in the last ten years, risen to dominate FOSS development. They= did this by building a user interface and adding social interaction featur= es to the existing Git technology. (For its part, Git was designed specific= ally to make software development distributed without a centralized site.) = In the central irony, GitHub succeeded where SourceForge failed: they have = convinced us to promote and even aid in the creation of a proprietary syste= m that exploits FOSS. GitHub profits from those proprietary products (somet= imes from customers who use it for problematic activities). Specifically, G= itHub profits primarily from those who wish to use GitHub tools for in-hous= e proprietary software development. Yet, GitHub comes out again and again s= eeming like a good actor =E2=80=94 because they point to their largess in p= roviding services to so many FOSS endeavors. But we've learned from the man= y gratis offerings in Big Tech: if you aren't the customer, you're the prod= uct. The FOSS development methodology is GitHub's product, which they've pr= oprietarized and repackaged with our active (if often unwitting) help. FOSS developers have been for too long the proverbial frog in slowly boilin= g water. GitHub's behavior has gotten progressively worse, and we've excuse= d, ignored, or otherwise acquiesced to cognitive dissonance. We at Software= Freedom Conservancy have ourselves been part of the problem; until recentl= y, even we'd become too comfortable, complacent, and complicit with GitHub.= Giving up GitHub will require work, sacrifice and may take a long time, ev= en for us: we at Software Freedom Conservancy historically self-hosted our = primary Git repositories, but we did use GitHub as a mirror. We urged our m= ember projects and community members to avoid GitHub (and all proprietary s= oftware development services and infrastructure), but this was not enough. = Today, we take a stronger stance. We are ending all our own uses of GitHub,= and announcing a long-term plan to assist FOSS projects to migrate away fr= om GitHub. While we will not mandate our existing member projects to move a= t this time, we will no longer accept new member projects that do not have = a long-term plan to migrate away from GitHub. We will provide resources to = support any of our member projects that choose to migrate, and help them ho= wever we can. There are so many good reasons to give up on GitHub, and we list the major = ones on our Give Up On GitHub site. We were already considering this action= ourselves for some time, but last week's event showed that this action is = overdue. Specifically, we at Software Freedom Conservancy have been actively communi= cating with Microsoft and their GitHub subsidiary about our concerns with = =E2=80=9CCopilot=E2=80=9D since they first launched it almost exactly a yea= r ago. Our initial video chat call (in July 2021) with Microsoft and GitHub= representatives resulted in several questions which they said they could n= ot answer at that time, but would =E2=80=9Canswer soon=E2=80=9D. After six = months of no response, Bradley published his essay, If Software is My Copil= ot, Who Programmed My Software? =E2=80=94 which raised these questions publ= icly. Still, GitHub did not answer our questions. Three weeks later, we lau= nched a committee of experts to consider the moral implications of AI-assis= ted software, along with a parallel public discussion. We invited Microsoft= and GitHub representives to the public discussion, and they ignored our in= vitation. Last week, after we reminded GitHub of (a) the pending questions = that we'd waited a year for them to answer and (b) of their refusal to join= public discussion on the topic, they responded a week later, saying they w= ould not join any public nor private discussion on this matter because =E2= =80=9Ca broader conversation [about the ethics of AI-assisted software] see= med unlikely to alter your [SFC's] stance, which is why we [GitHub] have no= t responded to your [SFC's] detailed questions=E2=80=9D. In other words, Gi= tHub's final position on Copilot is: if you disagree with GitHub about poli= cy matters related to Copilot, then you don't deserve a reply from Microsof= t or GitHub. They only will bother to reply if they think they can immediat= ely change your policy position to theirs. But, Microsoft and GitHub will l= eave you hanging for a year before they'll tell you that! Nevertheless, we were previously content to leave all this low on the prior= ity list =E2=80=94 after all, for its first year of existence, Copilot appe= ared to be more research prototype than product. Facts changed last week wh= en GitHub announced Copilot as a commercial, for-profit product. Launching = a for-profit product that disrespects the FOSS community in the way Copilot= does simply makes the weight of GitHub's bad behavior too much to bear. Our three primary questions for Microsoft/GitHub (i.e., the questions they = had been promising answers to us for a year, and that they now formally ref= used to answer) regarding Copilot were: What case law, if any, did you rely on in Microsoft & GitHub's public c= laim, stated by GitHub's (then) CEO, that: =E2=80=9C(1) training ML systems= on public data is fair use, (2) the output belongs to the operator, just l= ike with a compiler=E2=80=9D? In the interest of transparency and respect t= o the FOSS community, please also provide the community with your full lega= l analysis on why you believe that these statements are true. We think that we can now take Microsoft and GitHub's refusal to answer = as an answer of its own: they obviously stand by their former CEO's stateme= nt (the only one they've made on the subject), and simply refuse to justify= their unsupported legal theory to the community with actual legal analysis. If it is, as you claim, permissible to train the model (and allow users= to generate code based on that model) on any code whatsoever and not be bo= und by any licensing terms, why did you choose to only train Copilot's mode= l on FOSS? For example, why are your Microsoft Windows and Office codebases= not in your training set? Microsoft and GitHub's refusal to answer also hints at the real answer = to this question, too: While GitHub gladly exploits FOSS inappropriately, t= hey value their own =E2=80=9Cintellectual property=E2=80=9D much more highl= y than FOSS, and are content to ignore and erode the rights of FOSS users b= ut not their own. Can you provide a list of licenses, including names of copyright holder= s and/or names of Git repositories, that were in the training set used for = Copilot? If not, why are you withholding this information from the communit= y? We can only wildly speculate as to why they refuse to answer this quest= ion. However, good science practices would mean that they could answer that= question in any event. (Good scientists take careful notes about the exact= inputs to their experiments.) Since GitHub refuses to answer, our best gue= ss is that they don't have the ability to carefully reproduce their resulti= ng model, so they don't actually know the answer to whose copyrights they i= nfringed and when and how. As a result of GitHub's bad actions, today we call on all FOSS developers t= o leave GitHub. We acknowledge that answering that call requires sacrifice = and great inconvenience, and will take much time to accomplish. Yet, refusi= ng GitHub's services is the primary power developers have to send a strong = message to GitHub and Microsoft about their bad behavior. GitHub's business= model has always been =E2=80=9Cproprietary vendor lock-in=E2=80=9D. That's= the very behavior FOSS was founded to curtail, and it's why quitting incum= bent proprietary software in favor of a FOSS solution is often difficult. B= ut remember: GitHub needs FOSS projects to use their proprietary infrastruc= ture more than we need their proprietary infrastructure. Alternatives exist= , albeit with less familiar interfaces and on less popular websites =E2=80= =94 but we can also help improve those alternatives. And, if you join us, y= ou will not be alone. We've launched a website, GiveUpGitHub.org, where we'= ll provide tips, ideas, methods, tools and support to those that wish to le= ave GitHub with us. Watch that site and our blog throughout 2022 (and beyon= d!) for more. Most importantly, we are committed to offering alternatives to projects tha= t don't yet have another place to go. We will be announcing more hosting in= stance options, and a guide for replacing GitHub services in the coming wee= ks. If you're ready to take on the challenge now and give up GitHub today, = we note that CodeBerg, which is based on Gitea implements many (although no= t all) of GitHub. Thus, we're also going to work on even more solutions, co= ntinue to vet other FOSS options, and publish and/or curate guides on (for = example) how to deploy a self-hosted instance of the GitLab Community Editi= on. Meanwhile, the work of our committee continues to carefully study the gener= al question of AI-assisted software development tools. One recent prelimina= ry finding was that AI-assisted software development tools can be construct= ed in a way that by-default respects FOSS licenses. We will continue to sup= port the committee as they explore that idea further, and, with their help,= we are actively monitoring this novel area of research. While Microsoft's = GitHub was the first mover in this area, by way of comparison, early report= s suggest that Amazon's new CodeWhisperer system (also launched last week) = seeks to provide proper attribution and licensing information for code sugg= estions0. This harkens to long-standing problems with GitHub, and the central reason = why we must together give up on GitHub. We've seen with Copilot, with GitHu= b's core hosting service, and in nearly every area of endeavor, GitHub's be= havior is substantially worse than that of their peers. We don't believe Am= azon, Atlassian, GitLab, or any other for-profit hoster are perfect actors.= However, a relative comparison of GitHub's behavior to those of its peers = shows that GitHub's behavior is much worse. GitHub also has a record of ign= oring, dismissing and/or belittling community complaints on so many issues,= that we must urge all FOSS developers to leave GitHub as soon as they can.= Please, join us in our efforts to return to a world where FOSS is develope= d using FOSS. We expect this particular blog post will generate a lot of discussion. We w= elcome you to interact with SFC staff on our public mailing list about this= effort. Footnote 0However, we have not analyzed CodeWhisperer in depth so we cannot say for sure if Amazon's implementation is compliant with the respective licenses. Nevertheless, Amazon's behavior here shows sharp contrast with Microsoft's GitHub: Amazon acknowledges the obvious fact that there are license obligations that deserve attention and care when building AI-assisted programming solutions. (license of this text: cc by-sa) Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmLFN60QHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD6/1wEACJt7wbAFHnuytxCQzbbU4YYtVPuUWb2KrQ BD8DULkOaclWUKB5lTt0pDZE/8tA/fAR4TPqx0OrHwYrUM+P+4bVnUVHAqISW7wY soUXCl1FpAjHEoC+TLrRpKfxbCq9Pm0PnFDbbNMEGolauslMpSQCcbz8LoppC23C Im2gUOi2dYuAM31DokIET3TZy0F+O++RF+aP0w+mZyKB/zMRA9ap5RDKU+DWwmt4 rBKZtelVB3gvcFnyg/eyNIPKq27gSgAFGGKTaGsONxWtWgbkP/gx1d6PnLqkoub4 dy6tFC/19hfUlMSpRY9lIA3XFxqetDkdiNGdkVizozaklSAHYImsrhxV0HxgOrs8 y93iwFBK/FzSnaMqm5krafopQEzyzRH0Xstg4VIvBkAbpNrAfhAIURZo2RnFkHx5 MKgHByCqF8BhRB2Ioshw8rzJhSRuVfVjoNTPOm6Pk+fLczXBfMOZFXPcxpW0nt2r CH/z68VO9Fzk2xZfrPaApFgW1jtQHFUjy+fJmEyPnGZPi5Mbhk4RuUD0stvtvEbo j77O8A26eY9OVL/eZQxm6Oreka0hEsutzmhYScAmYpKs3hsJHdOcNVzV5I+b2nYh htiQ6UR3BMZ/AponW6po+ni7+n8axfoj2syhqCg8dTIAMn1fAvCMj8h0F4LeSkA/ Kw+QQvBXjojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmLFN60QHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSDoVA/4g/Z6KpTbUBGzU9LV7ccEVh6lk /UlLyIx9rOBDhfFEWYoOw0RsZGQWgfdQViMEPldf1DQrKQhvCuoh6Ja6cIrlaMts iXgh+MFhiJ0Veh0fLAgyAT5Fl4L3a7jfE6ZQVWXcbWOX2RPXD2YhKJpqSsOXD5Sx 293XCwBbUZv8keBNOA== =MGe+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--