From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id IGNAFPYmzGKtqAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:34:46 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id aH77E/YmzGIvCQEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:34:46 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFD5B45519 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:34:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41264 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAtYi-0004tm-Tq for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 09:34:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37046) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAtY9-0004ro-6C for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 09:34:09 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:60219) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oAtY5-0003m4-G7 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 09:34:08 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 406A724010A for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:34:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1657546443; bh=X82waUEstfWk3vtCjcKnNF8bi7Ky87kxvkNQBar2Z3I=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=o6xbyznxWfdAqwkmTO5irEn9/ka5ACW5IFwPvWpVhPRJvDjyPo+sgrwTdAlBuIXYo zU1DECqp64/SIjZkf4Iq1d0Wysduiot30BCJ1OL1o/W9mkNByKPYQZZb+RksNV9dYT bO9XD+s2rCzhTBO6HoRI8Vw1VA+8enRVcb+j1miKhHP9/nBqVabsCNWRM9+BcEqrXa twL2arIFcM8PP/aN4Uft0hjlzuV636/4suB7BPw3qBb8QhinidslViYgYOtchjS7G1 l6jqe6mOLlSeabREXXNjmx4krnY+wL/EpV/nxc1IbLloBhyfp35kxIJuaq6lwvBjSO hD8labGTgrEPg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4LhPx647Pmz9rxS; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 15:34:02 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= To: Tim Cross Cc: orgmode Subject: Re: [possible patch] Basic fontspec code for LuaLaTeX and XelaTeX (was "LaTeX export: when is it more useful...") References: <87ilo7ztm3.fsf@posteo.net> <87ilo7tp78.fsf@tsdye.online> <87o7xy8t4g.fsf@posteo.net> <87a69i8ha1.fsf@posteo.net> <87tu7qnij4.fsf@posteo.net> <87r12ssonv.fsf_-_@posteo.net> <8735f81x7s.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 13:34:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: <8735f81x7s.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 11 Jul 2022 06:58:26 +1000") Message-ID: <874jznhiyf.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=maciaschain@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1657546486; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=TdBYZJFb7PoGe/CUqcGISN3gDLFp+XShE11m5DeOBDI=; b=PGWZ74Funyk2qTETkfOPHa0yaSVEEp9yKYSik9tJcH4NcUPGoG02eYBjvaxRwZNzErr/Jw YlrOO1QWvARBZVZVAfeXbuFSmikzEAUfREmJAVoXkzwYQkU0sjdJicedkG5zbBTEGVCPI+ O2bc+L2/RWchpTXbdbhjaHOc23ERNih5IyssflTxExF+aDrOs+Xd9ktQTwaLnpsx67DXUC i9khRN/bkFB8tmAf9D/77zv+p5hOCzSLUk6IkSnJr70PF08kJ5Fr+5qgKUoRJKQuwMvlv5 gG3qIQbsC49movFQHaEM/tquceT7EqvQOjwMnRpHnNTcZTgfmz+DrdZVwyLjeg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1657546486; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=X5Ixck0NrwSMLaBSRbN/aubZz64iYASYN6AAlsiXcBBheDh62XO0Dk0CJlWx5xZirTKPbH vV8nSEAt0RWM55XaJqFUY784YiK2Gx4dMMVNtYiuylCvPcri7PGGtEJh+khrjNYZmDPty9 uY4OzNPejMpKASZD43oIh5XWzlQyQFy90X65s8PpoKTFcqUB63xwKBt6VGcAHvQiTjCpw8 k5uuItpA9pZxrgFVLGVvDlB2K/TpNv/pKNa7HsPUgeHp7jzqurvf1kdvBiKfBrptLQEjLV gEjycIchDxFy3ThIHrl9hP59/ukZ6QgR/QyD352UIS9+ecjx1piZdZwxmrZQLQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=o6xbyznx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=o6xbyznx; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CFD5B45519 X-Spam-Score: -4.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: V9PQa617a2jb Tim Cross writes: > Juan, if I understand your proposal correctly, I think your on the right > track. It sounds like what you are proposing would have almost no impact > on basic users like me, but would allow those with more demanding > requirements to adjust without too much effort. I originally raised the > question regarding what would need to change with the switch to uatex to > ensure that we do actually get things positioned to enable people to > exploit the benefits and not just switch out one tool for another which > only appears to be a little slower. I think what you are suggesting > addresses that concern. Tim, thanks a lot for your interesting comments. Indeed, I think that LuaTeX is a good direction for the TeX ecosystem. And it seems that the third edition of The LaTeX Companion makes the way clear: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/612573/the-latex-companion-3rd-edition/612586 Of course, LuaTeX is still a kind of cyborg (someone defined it that funny way :-). TeX has not been rewritten here from scratch (that would have been preferable), but LuaTeX has brought, in my opinion, two revolutionary things: being able to control TeX internals from a scripting language as light and minimalist as Lua (which drastically influences the creation of packages every increasingly powerful and sophisticated for all areas) and the fact that TeX is finally native unicode. From the latter, of course, follows the fact that the user is no longer dependent on Computer Modern and can choose whatever font he wants, just like in any other modern textual software, from a simple word processor to more advanced tools like InDesign-style dtp programs. Even though pdfTeX was light years ahead of InDesign, this simple operation of choosing the font or font family has always been horribly difficult in LaTeX. There were a few packages that incorporated specific font families (Times, Fourier, etc.), but if one wanted to manually install Adobe Garamond in pdfTeX ---for example---, the process became absurdly long and cumbersome. Now in LuaLaTeX and XelaTeX that is as simple as doing it in libreoffice. Of course, TeX and LaTeX have always had their historical typeface, Computer Modern, which is almost like one of their distinguishing features. This extreme reliance on Computer Modern has often given people who don't use LaTeX the misconception that any document made in LaTeX always looks the same. Despite the fact that I feel enormous admiration for Donald Knuth, and I believe that to a greater or lesser extent many or almost all of us are indebted to him, I believe that the design of Computer Modern is not good and has many legibility problems (imho), especially legibility screen (precisely because of its Didot-style design, with such a marked contrast between the strokes). Since there is a thread on this list about accessibility, it's worth remembering that Computer Modern isn't exactly an easy-to-read font. Of course, you have to put things in their historical context. When TeX was created there was nothing similar to what we have today in fonts, there was no truetype or opentype, there were no free fonts either. It was all to do. And, naturally, if one creates "a new typesetting system intended for the creation of beautiful books" (Texbook page 5, Preface), it would be somewhat strange if this new typesetting system were born without a typeface to show the world the excellence of TeX. For that reason Knuth created Metafont and the Computer Modern font. Now with LuaTeX and XeTeX choosing the font, any font, is easy, fast and trivial. > but as I said, I know nothing.... I don't think so. Knowing (or not knowing) things or facts (after all, all of this is just "data") is not the same as being wise and speaking wisely :-) Best regards, Juan Manuel