From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id WNa6An9+22NIVQEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 10:12:31 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id yOmRAn9+22M8JwAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 10:12:31 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9807020E03 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 10:12:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVdH-0002Ol-FA; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 04:11:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVdG-0002LG-4O for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 04:11:50 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVdD-0000p4-Hn for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 04:11:49 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7029F2406EA for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 10:11:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675329105; bh=+fZONh5SLNgV10MepipGj5FRS7lL0rv0B5AO7PwF3ss=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=c8nTBCUpbV2gnGmvd+Bh86bJsOIiUYL4fqcT8Dv04X1Hxh1z2ouqAwO+9c1Y79RNN Ecw7f5u61326jCa6xBkcPIqVEAeZ2n9bi1/wJXzjZAODVrtYP37TC1ID0WDBQoydpu fBliQDYb8G9J7Jh1qSnZf/BSS4Vpcr3NqIzeOm60hq8agC+Jzmg8l1QknddybgjyOv K5+1FhUxV/7i4eTmJnzsIaJlrSqCeg+urDtrRRZXh6RN5dANYXHKI91UwizG3mI9ZT kO1kIHhEYmsVoP0TUjRpAsfcKV3yQRNO8sbC5XOu6BAMJlqsEKE84jTUbR5ARX66qx XucNu6PPHqLRg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P6tML3dK9z9rxK; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 10:11:42 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Timothy Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) In-Reply-To: <87a61wn23k.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> References: <87r0vtiks0.fsf@localhost> <63c671c0.a70a0220.61aa5.56b8@mx.google.com> <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <87mt6e86sr.fsf@tsdye.online> <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87a61wn23k.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2023 09:12:18 +0000 Message-ID: <87357oqvm5.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675329150; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Act6IakpdGbblzv/XQO/nyDHMwdvKg3g3BkRHqVmzVa3qTTeL7lgGuRDpS1Khfs9HPJ3i0 QdWEwU5I4UUUYUJ7oeorjGiM3NQw1Z3zPNDqB/lIe9aabkt+bsrIL2GxXFRVFVhm/u1mU1 TWOUYg14/J49iYQxGq0E3zTdW/f5xQR14F0v2Qk68o4q/uRgp25QNgMxCvReiXxyk6yK5k sthi/2mCENeOZet4iPd1xvvxgG13X9CCRw8gYu5xnF+JeFwPLNNE3jScTdrzXOo+IPpdSX e1rI0WKpiOUVZHvY1cy+ZW8mWIXcBehMTQn4qlG/909STeTVVrq5oPk6GFLtmw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=c8nTBCUp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675329150; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=DyaQhX804SpBYRni4sD0w83IZydhAIQHEDmeD1r42sQ=; b=DqcKYeA38nFh8q30anlE1Or3UXsWVISXC8UKhe33PT+bXzhfX7FST7G9Ab53qeaxaj1JfH ABTC1A4fRD2j/gFPwi0wPUbDPlgTx/6P6kTPG3jfqj8cHG9wKSQo5GNbUO/aw0m9LWNZg8 gi+caDmdtSkfHE5Izc+HBuCK0LRNYrC5+49rtGrjxGf/t36lxPIZK6lPjftNqFSjGrK2Jk VZGfssrh2c3MSeSfG64FEbvcy7OnOBW3afN15Hul97e4ybMcc0RZkWJ5xv60xfjhpw9XVJ HEclpR2yVNU8+rfiRBZWbBpBWjJFCseRH0WmZyLpUq73pTkiufmxk08wNE8PHA== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.85 X-Spam-Score: -9.85 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9807020E03 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=c8nTBCUp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: lbSl6iBGmUMV Timothy writes: > This functions well, however I see a potential to be confusing at a glanc= e here. > Consider the visual similarity of 10:30 to 11:00 in local time and 10:30 = in > UTC-11, and the combination of both. > > =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00] > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30-1100] > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00-1100] > =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 Note that an alternative is=20 [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00] [2022-11-12 10:30-11] [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00-11] which is much less confusing. > I=E2=80=99d be inclined to put the UTC offset together with the time zone= name if > possible. Do you think something along the lines of `@-1100,America/Ancho= rage' > could be viable? I=E2=80=99d think that would reduce the chance of confus= ion. > > =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00] > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30 @-1100] > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 10:30-11:00 @-1100] > =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 This might be an option. A slight disadvantage is more verbose syntax for simple timestamps like [2022-11-12 10:30+02] [2022-11-12 10:30 @+02] >> 2022-11-12 12:00+07 @!Asia/Singapore >> >> Org will calculate the internal time for both +07 offset and >> Asia/Singapore time zone. If they do not match, Org will issue a >> warning. The offset will still be preferred if we have to proceed. >> >> This can be useful when planning future meetings and sending Org file >> with a timestamp to someone else, potentially with obsolete tzdb. > > I like the way that combining these features works, but I do wonder if pe= rhaps > warning when these two bits of information don=E2=80=99t match should be = the default > behaviour, and the `!' used to specify which of them should be prioritise= d? I am not sure if it is a good idea. > It also occurs to me that this proposed behaviour might be easier with a = single > `@TZINFO' form as I mentioned earlier, e.g. > > =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80 > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 12:00 @+07,Asia/Singapore] # warn when mismatch > =E2=94=82 [2022-11-12 12:00 @+07,!Asia/Singapore] # use Asia/Singapore ov= er +07 Consider the requests about time zone abbreviations. Without "always warn", we can do [2022-11-12 12:00 @+08,CST] with CST being ambiguous (and also not supported by `encode-time'). --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at