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Dye" To: Max Nikulin Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: UTC or not UTC for timestamps in the past ([FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:44:55 -1000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <871qnkiqwu.fsf@tsdye.online> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box2035.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - tsdye.online X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 50.113.33.148 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1pK9Rb-001nLy-Pa X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: cpe-50-113-33-148.hawaii.res.rr.com (poto-foou.tsdye.online) [50.113.33.148]:48540 X-Source-Auth: tsd@tsdye.online X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: dHNkeWVvbmw7dHNkeWVvbmw7Ym94MjAzNS5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Received-SPF: pass client-ip=69.89.25.95; envelope-from=tsd@tsdye.online; helo=gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.498, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=CeqjC4ap; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674528864; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ukEF51DHVBuWvWYx4swX7AcK+6z9anAlGvq9SmBbk3xz0N3jftZrQbo8ZaDapKpJvtiqdW TvRtaEL/sQWVysLgiRd1dL0akErE21XB5WilaOhJ/9EJ2pI8b1tzQjPv8ohltzSUnp3vO+ SyPiEa8MbHbEfVpD/GZFFKmvZEJrgz37tlBOBmF8UpEnlCUoJA3Wqt0l2FzehtZYg9RDJX DFwWgpCZJHc7BLxf+XrQTUVHPGTzXDeWXggs31weN/TX2AArib/u493hyVPhG4J4dCpORr O0E1fqLZ94S7c+EccQzweI+uyBT3k9R6TtvWaUDbsvTGvAdTC0ll6g+/Je+/yA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674528864; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=jIkVFF+WM2SPnS8Abe2zdiiTszzkk8X3fmeIKodyOuk=; b=apbeofyoWKqvyYnzlS65NF7tCe3A91jDIjgxUotRUmanaLFjx0mpdkiStwsY7o42N9kfGm eER3NT9z6L8J4hEJk96/xxkGpj5sp6xQSjichtrr8XiyC4wHGfr1cK1JsM4j57bbdSr000 4Z2dGHkD0+8SNrmGd+fAWvZhWkPUH3Padlst5ai2c+mIdGrAsRbv9aLQRWzEtPF3UJv7q2 QZneYht/rAZz1HOEP/Vgk3OSyYag20Jnql6HCOa0bIGvRds3jaGy7xn1XekOEfv8KitEwI 3ITfd/0U+0VuxNzbbLDhKbMI5CF26M2rgtZMTUop1J5wK4WLNj+kCmzXp4R7og== X-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 50364AA83 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tsdye.online header.s=default header.b=CeqjC4ap; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-TUID: Eg37nZmmj39f Aloha Max, Max Nikulin writes: > On 23/01/2023 23:04, Thomas S. Dye wrote: >>> I understand above that it is easier understandable when >>> reading >>> [2023-01-22 Sun 08:29@+1100] as it is assumed by poster (I >>> guess Max) >>> that user will understand that there is +11 hours ahead. >>> >> Yes, the offset here is ambiguous--is it offset from some >> timezone or from >> UTC? > > Are you aware of usage base time other than UTC nowadays? My > impression is that > various libraries do not allow to get such formats easily. That > is why e.g. web > sites tends to present time in the server timezone (often not > explicitly > specified) or use JavaScript to convert it to browser timezone. > > I believed that [2023-01-22 Sun 08:29@+1100] unambiguously > suggests offset from > UTC. Not for a casual programmer like me. The timestamp alone might easily be read as 11 hours ahead of local time. Nevertheless, Org is certainly free to interpret it as relative to UTC. > Are there local references that may confuse users? I mean > something like 9 hours > ahead of Moscow (Asia/Kamchatka) used in USSR. I think 9 hours ahead of a timezone with a potentially variable offset from UTC has the potential to sow confusion, yes. All the best, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye https://tsdye.online/tsdye