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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:842a:7361:87c7:2662]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k30-20020aa7999e000000b00537aa0fbb57sm4261327pfh.51.2022.09.28.10.34.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 28 Sep 2022 10:35:00 -0700 (PDT) References: <87a66lpm5p.fsf@localhost> <8735cdpkiz.fsf@localhost> <87y1u5o1ko.fsf@localhost> <87a66k2j5y.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> <7edd911f-b74-6521-634e-7f30acdb5fad@panix.com> <867d1nj1yn.fsf@gmail.com> <877d1n3ky0.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.9.0; emacs 29.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: Timothy Cc: Jude DaShiell , Ihor Radchenko , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: org exported pdf files Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 03:08:35 +1000 In-reply-to: <877d1n3ky0.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> Message-ID: <86tu4ro11c.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664386817; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Pg4e0e35G504Xaqh5aQNIzJphpjMwP5NqaWqe4Jm8yg=; b=ppSv7zsY4wRhyi+0Ja2IAoKQ9uDBnJ9NwDqD/n67O+g/WGxX5INTZI/AvcwXIvJ9L0A2EN DE4j0jvdRVgbdaejKOX8xO6kNSxXUFkIEyKSd2FNTJ1bU1n0mc7bt/+t+3eEv1GhFKTG/v LdIde2oe+rr0Pe4QUNrm/1EQRIduBtY9gieUa04A3JX1elmNxciTdAsjURDPnotV9Zs4lu GgYQaAcrLQk9vdqV8NWHAz2T71SRF1NFjFEz6Te041YZiCtVIu5rtFnsnNe13Tbv8wtCFv U6mVnhQVdTXG26qc+LLEyrM7Y5hOYMipO4SEJ01c2of3DY8Zl0PJGbg4Q3+DYQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664386817; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=sd5XXbQc7z5P5QDtfJ9JS37ex+ok7K/rJnmMcR4on6pH+tkvA0gEeVPAgamyXNm6JlZCA+ iUlHfZqjsG7r/Oi9cFyEi1E+yKfoKMK/pAJW2LX/phxpq6bYn5D5XEgF3lNVfgyYa8otvn 7zkB6kgPiJ4JWuhCI5jpcLdddxMJLFZsIMiwZDvnQmaNFXL/LCdi8Ipox2mTprjxavm21B fGDVoTZIhgvC0gvMcnx+fI2LVhPvukSuOSf2PbOLbTU0MHoQU+x3ZWOB9Txs1aLWB/t83h mHaFxf7IiEwwQ73flU88RLJWtcOyhlRW6lotewxjNcKVmnAVp3VpNeGTM2470A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="D/ZZ2vZ3"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="D/ZZ2vZ3"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D9A7CC667 X-Spam-Score: -9.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: tvGmi+oI7mq8 Timothy writes: > Hi Tim, > >> It would probably be good to add the two above packages as part of the >> =E2=80=99default=E2=80=99 package preamble, but this would require consi= derable testing >> as it isn=E2=80=99t known if there will be adverse effects when mixed wi= th other >> packages. > > Those packages are early accessibility experiments, and are /not/ intende= d for > wider use. See the top of the > README: =E2=80=9CPrototype. Not suitable for production=E2=80=9D. The au= thor themselves said in > a [2020 tex.SE answer] that: > > `accessibility' was developed and published back in 2007 as a proof= of concept for > some of the KOMA document styles. I got hold of the files from the = author in > 2019 and took over maintenance with her permission. I tidied up the= package > enough to get it to CTAN, but didn=E2=80=99t update the functionali= ty. I also published > it to GitHub to get some feedback on it. > > It seems to have worked well in 2007 for a few test cases. Unfortun= ately it now > fails every test case, and it looks like needing some serious effor= ts to fix. > > Because of this I no longer think that accessibility is fit for pur= pose. > > They also go on to make a comment I=E2=80=99ve seen a few times from the = people working > on the latex3 accessibility project =E2=80=94 basically that in order to = actually get > a /good/ solution, we=E2=80=99ll need to wait till support is baked into = the LaTeX core. > > If we=E2=80=99re desperate to add this, we=E2=80=99ll likely want to look= at `tagpdf' which is > written by someone working on the latex3 accessibility project. It is app= arently > capable of passing PCA3, however according to the author: > > `tagpdf' hasn=E2=80=99t been written as a user package but to allow= experiments and tests > and to help to identify missing interfaces in the kernel and in pac= kages. It can > change at any time in incompatible ways and it requires some skills= to use it. > > So, while it may be a particularly boring answer, I think =E2=80=9Cwait a= nd see=E2=80=9D is our > current best bet. > > All the best, > Timothy > > > [2020 tex.SE answer] None of what yuo wrote is a surprise. Unfortunately, it does mean two things 1. Org mode cannot be used to create accessible PDF documents as long as it depends on the latex environment to generate those documents.=20 2. Technically, Org mode cannot be used in any organisation (specifically g= overnment funded) where ther are policies which require that documents be accessible. For example, technically, this means we cannot use org mode in Australian government organisations, which would also include Universities. I suspect other countries have similar accessibility requriements, especially in government and government funded organisations).=20 I say technically because despite such policies, the level of accessibility in many work and educational environments is very poor. In Australia, few government departments have reached the accessibility levels specified in policies which are now nearly 20 years old. The private sector is even worse. While I have seen improvements in the last 40 years, I have yet to work in an environment where just a majority of the systems I need to access in order to do my job effectively meet minimal accessibility standards.=20 I don't know if other document processors, like perhaps pandoc, can create PDF files which contain the tagging and other structural metadatra necessary to make PDFs accessible. Note that org also lacks any accessibility support for HTML generated documents as well. However, this is less problematic as authors do have some ability to add the necessary attributes that can improve accessibility - an option not available with Latex. An unfortunate situation really - especially given Emacs has one of the most powerful and advanced accessibility options available via emacspeak. I also won't hold my breath for a new latgex core. THe latex3 initiative seems to have failed or at least appears to be slower to be realised than p= erl6!=20