From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id IBgyDs83Y2CoPAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:38:07 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id iOAWCM83Y2A+YQAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:38:07 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 714D91D65F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:38:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46410 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRFVN-0001RB-ER for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:38:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37186) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRFTj-00017d-Ad for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:36:23 -0400 Received: from mail-out01.uio.no ([2001:700:100:10::50]:50612) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRFTW-0003vQ-N6 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:36:22 -0400 Received: from mail-mx10.uio.no ([129.240.10.27]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1lRFTQ-0002MN-18; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:36:04 +0200 Received: from cm-84.209.16.135.getinternet.no ([84.209.16.135] helo=sputnik.shmi.ifi.uio.no) by mail-mx10.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user msteffen (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1lRFTP-000AYz-3K; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:36:03 +0200 From: Martin Steffen To: autofrettage Subject: Re: About exporting Organization: IFI UiO Norway References: <88a3facd-2f95-42b7-135a-d2ec6a730ba7@gmail.com> <86tuosdfh6.fsf@login.ifi.uio.no> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:35:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: (autofrettage@protonmail.ch's message of "Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:44:38 +0000") Message-ID: <86pmzgd7zm.fsf@login.ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx10.uio.no: 84.209.16.135 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=84.209.16.135; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=sputnik.shmi.ifi.uio.no; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, AWL=0.034, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5) X-UiO-Scanned: 086499219EFFDD2BD670FFCA3182C2569B5E1C61 X-UiOonly: F994FB0C55B27AB06D7B588CFEAF59F02FB4948A Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:700:100:10::50; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=mail-out01.uio.no X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1617115086; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=vKVtZam6+mkFtzowxrFQq1VTUsQWGIdMjyAUnD7qscI=; b=pdXDaY75hM9TseTxO8l40b4spRFImnFxc0ybR/oylKNG//NviWQluatbyZtCbA79yjdKQC CJypdS/vbmz+a6kJwQzv1jeNG1UIXH48nnJj1ETNT+LYh1m9g74orQK48hozCzsl+pXqXr F83roobeNQXlSAcAowQqJz5zEqB9O16L5HAFOly+KV89Nfgx4DA06a2Q0xPrO0C8q5SpSZ Cy0loW4Meq9dFvjTiZq0UKigntdhIlHmw/gdZIdME6ubz/+Xmr56nu7AoDpHPVoWlJD8P2 aCvshbnEWJ0FFuZgTY2BfwQ/2WVuOo315sNpig45uKZWaEMNGP4qadW0STf5NQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1617115086; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rA3giKadVbBHJA1OSKTUlrUxea8zzBUgtkJm7HHOqkVhXa03wnNWedk9FR0280EYBUBh71 Tvizu3Uen6SOb0ILgbBWGAcQGO/s0tAMzESzaBY5QJ9v7xtwWN7xPTNaYFfODmsVnFKmtL DUxFJQmDTO1uaigHkN7SIWQR6CHbWxTbIocaMnM+4eI/3zf2jNAYkTzqlK31aSP2McG9TW 2H133UTxuctagIRNw/2XxdcsmhgGsIhtg4OeUsxiD04R4LCSctjmPYaVVSeYApHCfmTMn2 ceIT0ZrmPkKgIxiKbbRSIwtSxfU/K3Cka0AnCBgs7X+HdUxmF15akc/GASae3A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.42 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 714D91D65F X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: LoHVd/Y+1H4o >>>>> "autofrettage" == autofrettage writes: autofrettage> Hi, autofrettage> Not even the most streamlined DTP-wysiwyg-program is I agree. I did not want to imply that. autofrettage> safe from this. Far from. I even doubt typewritten autofrettage> documents can be written colla- boratively, without autofrettage> someone messing things up. Also that is common (I wrote many publications collaboratively with latex. One can mess up at every level (from the line where a revision merge conflict occurs, to latex incompatibilities (though that's not a big problem resp. one can get that under control) up to notational, linguistic or ``semantic'' incompatibilities (section 4 contradicts content-wise what has been written is section 3). None of that can (or should) be prevented by any form of tool. it depends on communicating with each other, using one's brain, and a few other qualities. As far as LaTeX vs. org is concerned (for producing readable documents in varying degree of requirements as far as the complexity of document is concerned and the typesetting quality), in my experience it's as follows: of course everything that can be done by latex can be done with org (trivially). As far as collaboration is concerned, if you get more experienced with latex (and learn from mistakes and get better making use of it), you will somehow rely on provided classed and other things offered (and making good use of macros etc), and not messing it up, knowing better than latex how it should looks like. That may including writing class files yourself or style files (and sharing them with your collaborators), but with experience you get more "disciplined" (if you are willing to follow that discipline). Though one can do the same in org (to disipline oneself to avoid messing up collaboratively working on a shared document), I simply think it's harder. Both latex and org gives you freedom whatever you do (and you can use it to mess it up; and as you send, also in a restrictive DTP or a harsh straightjacket of producing "text" by filling out many small web-forms, each free-form text at most 200 characters, like in a web-questionnaire, you still can mess it up). I enjoy the freedom that editing latex (and the support given by emacs) for the same reason I enjoy the freedom of org (and the support given many org-packages). The difference is, in latex I don't want to explore the freedom I have (like messing up things that styles prepared from me, or write {\Large\textbf{Chapter 1: \hspace{4mm} Introduction}} instead of using the command \chapter{Introduction}. And this experience of NOT using parts of the freedom is shared with between experienced latex users (especially those that collaborate in a good way with latex together on shared documents) In org, getting experienced with org for me leads me doing more and more creative things. I have one or two colleagues, they do completely different things than me or do it completely differntly, and that's fine. But it's not a basis for using org for collaboratively writing books. Of course it's doable, but requires more (self-)discipline. I have also seen people I collaborate with that do in LaTeX things like {\Large\textbf{Chapter 1: \hspace{4mm} Introduction}}, though this are either beginners (if they stick to this for them established use of how to write LaTeX, makes a text-based collaboration not useful for me.... On can still talk things through etc but not write a common text :-)) In my experience, ith latex, it's possible to write text together for well-intended people. Publishing houses tell you ``these are the classes and style files (among perhaps others) that you _have_ to use, and also do the following...'' (same possible for wisiwyg-editors, I assume), and if you don't mess that up (like overwriting the defaults) you have a chance to get a uniformely looking output (and on a halfway portable platform, like a CTAN compatible latex installation). I cannot imagine that publishers would prescibe ``this is the org-settings and features you as author must to use to publish with us''. Org (for the discussed usecase of exporting documents) is just a way to produce LaTeX, latex takes care of portability and can assist with uniformity and quality of type setting, but org intends (many) other (useful) things. Martin autofrettage> There should be something like pilot licences for autofrettage> using certain computer tools, not to speak about autofrettage> programming, but let's not sink into squabbles about autofrettage> that... autofrettage> cheers Rasmus