From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id iKYrFIXvKmRDGQAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 17:23:49 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8JAQFIXvKmTFIgAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 17:23:49 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A5B92AF97 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 2023 17:23:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjM1G-0004PQ-LP; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:22:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjM1E-0004PI-Lh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:22:52 -0400 Received: from mail-out01.uio.no ([2001:700:100:10::50]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjM1C-0008SB-4M for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:22:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ifi.uio.no; s=key2103; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:References :Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=TyesfqpOeWMm7qbfdLSrWh1N/IAoZ5OLS0ochQSNyxc=; b=fl3yoTkr55X0Y3SHs21L95YLT5 cRs9EF3MVKHhmozF5KlbwqVePlDer9PR2R4r0deXl+OYVyWnsbflOeSIJMi9GLJStv6WtaxGj1wmD +JVnr2dMUtBBv3vLKB723NDzav+d5Z/zsV1avDmWD72x0rq3x6Ah0N2+GS+Dk8kj+Cvxse+EGtFAz 5JtTU999o9dJFGC2Gakbe7wFOsGsKFmKHjbS6fzx2Ks9MYvdSjCe8tOE2amn3tkih4YNyZxTmzkD0 /2OhGBXSOEvsHMISnmmYgyRM5+uJQSev9C7eXo3ijepF2aMzp8SUp2te6B4zTLxK/abFP+VnXKYeV TQExbZGw==; Received: from mail-mx12.uio.no ([129.240.10.84]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1pjM16-008WqY-0G; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 17:22:44 +0200 Received: from [84.208.253.224] (helo=fedora.shmi.ifi.uio.no) by mail-mx12.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user msteffen (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1pjM15-0004S5-15; Mon, 03 Apr 2023 17:22:43 +0200 From: Martin Steffen To: Marko Schuetz-Schmuck Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: A dream? Organization: IFI UiO Norway References: <87edp1rs25.fsf@allofthis.mail-host-address-is-not-set> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2023 17:22:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87edp1rs25.fsf@allofthis.mail-host-address-is-not-set> (Marko Schuetz-Schmuck's message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2023 09:52:50 -0400") Message-ID: <86fs9hvvlx.fsf@login.ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx12.uio.no: 84.208.253.224 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=84.208.253.224; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=fedora.shmi.ifi.uio.no; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5) X-UiO-Scanned: 36394A62ACC6598C3957D0784CA400F598890121 X-UiOonly: 28CF7BB81094B9C2023FB06688D1DDC3F19CAAED Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:700:100:10::50; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=mail-out01.uio.no X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1680535429; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kzKKe8T6rSBNVJa/zZ538nuNfrVUslxxu+5tYBAd8e4Z8Fz+H6jsfPSmSyBaZqREDQdgm7 HFauc4hokz1vHrVZ4BnS6ripqkpVoonuJJgGeIbw7LdygFXjXwiK6dS/uYOboXbLB1awFx SjQH4t2T3qTZ3ipPtg/5LTl9STwZ/Q7hcm2Fcaa9SjHz+PgjuE6FwGeVPb2T0yhRtsKdIK POMaPEZ3apZBLX5ksbxtrZ2kBScVmABF9eJZkWfpqgtY28sOsqD2EuIekU1md+5jOgpzhc jqO13xaqchIaxwQ2T7KkmznaF6uAmc7OMt4WxA5dn9nTqWyNvlYebdkYF7SPPA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=ifi.uio.no header.s=key2103 header.b=fl3yoTkr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1680535429; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=TyesfqpOeWMm7qbfdLSrWh1N/IAoZ5OLS0ochQSNyxc=; b=bsYT6LGP7gheruW7Jv25w5egTxsm1l5MMS25k3XWT0N5Q8elk/4i+lno4ahdOZEjV+zFJF UBOwcl/vNR1+h4XUUE03/A1CwMXjkJ1Ou8fXrtux1dCm8aljQBiSvW2iGVEBVMux3hdTTf X5r6DIH8MGuT/FSAqupgQQM/CVqj4p3hnrErULkIJhqw0XiGKbnxZ74htcElj/jm6Z3PbJ 0391D9t0x2kEPC5MjCXHQztz4Ha+P4y1abexEEsoUbWYoywfxy/fpBUub62O05KQCkvnuG 0gDekhMxh8OD7PEnfpmRvQaJw19YgaWCBrCOTqo4jzaLxRNDPSm7IJszSEeq6Q== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.98 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=ifi.uio.no header.s=key2103 header.b=fl3yoTkr; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Spam-Score: 1.98 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1A5B92AF97 X-TUID: ajF0BQcpw5v2 Hi, I also do some teaching, different courses, in earlier times lab courses/project work, recently a quite large bachelor level course. Some of the courses (like the ones mentioned) require keeping track of many, many details (from my side), including administrational, organizational stuff, open issues web-pages, instructions, exercizes, deadlines, exams, grading etc). To keep all of that under control, I use org. Also managing the masses of students, I get a bunch of student assistents and graders that needs also to be organized and, including a ``lead student assistent'' that helps orchestrating the other student assistents (and the students taking the course). For those cordinating tasks, keeping an overview, use org (though special tasks require special other solutions. For instance, slides are done in latex, and ultimately, information, like exam results, have to be uploaded into official administrative tool). Some of the student assistants actually also use org. Some master level students (not just the assistents) in another course use org as well for things like documentation. For courses that involve more extensive course work I use git and seem students appreciate that github honors org as format for simple documentation and readmes etc. That being said, it seems that among students I have in my courses, markdown is more popular for such simple web-compatible documentations. Also most student assistants use md, only some do org. For really collaborative course works (like multiple students track stuff on a joint project or all students need to have the same org-setup), I never imposed org as format. Org is too flexible, perhaps, as soon as one get's into it, everyone has one's own specific style to use various features and it's tricky to get comfortable with someone else's style (and _forcing_ all of them to adhere to one predescribed style probably takes away what makes org great and makes it cumbersome.) As a general observation in courses I gave where documentation (of features, interfaces, plans, etc) was required (but where I did not necessarily specified the exact tool or format), the best groups were those that wrote the documentation not for me (``gee, the lecturer wants some documentation, it seems mandatory, let's write up something for him who cares anyway'') but those that realized that for a successful collaboration and project they themselves profit from cleanly stating and writing things. And sometimes a well-organized Todo.txt-file does the job, as long as the people feel it's the best solution for them. Though an org-file sure would be superior. So I think the tricky part will be to convince some of them, that doing org is not some weird idiosyncrasy of the teacher, but may actually be helpful. But that's hard. If you are grown up with eclipse or whatever for hacking, and first have to learn yourself emacs, to learn yourself org, to ultimately see the light, that org is good for todo lists in the course, the semester is sure over... For projects where something like a overall and common issue-tracker for bugs etc was required for _all_ I normally also did not rely on org (or do-what-you want-as-long-as-its-clean-and-helpful-for-you), but on specialized issue-trackers, in the last course, github-issues . best, Martin >>>>> "Marko" == Marko Schuetz-Schmuck writes: Marko> Dear All, Marko> I teach some software engineering courses and in each of them Marko> students work on semester-long projects in teams. So far, Marko> have let them choose their own tools for all the tasks Marko> (implementation language, documentation tools, Marko> etc.). Personally, I have been using org-mode for what feels Marko> like forever. I was thinking that it would be nice to have Marko> students use org-mode also for their project. I can see it Marko> provide so many features that would benefit the projects: Marko> easy links for e.g. traceability, tagging of requirements for Marko> categorizing, responsible developer,..., of course todo Marko> lists, priorities, progress tracking, rendering to web page, Marko> PDF,... Marko> Since these are students from a very technical background I Marko> would hope they would be open to this. Marko> Anyway, does anyone have any experience related to this, Marko> maybe not specifically related to teaching, but software Marko> engineering projects (with documentation of domain, Marko> requirements, project approach, progress, references, source Marko> code, testing, design, etc. etc. etc.)? Marko> Best regards, Marko> Marko