From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Use Emacs' default value of "bidi-paragraph-direction" in orgmode Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 16:10:50 +0300 Message-ID: <83in6htv6t.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1529058737.1901.36.camel@gmail.com> <87muvwjgb2.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <83k1qyx7ow.fsf@gnu.org> <1529238598.1901.83.camel@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51981) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fUXSO-0001vp-0L for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 09:11:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fUXSI-0006vI-UB for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jun 2018 09:10:59 -0400 In-reply-to: <1529238598.1901.83.camel@gmail.com> (message from ST on Sun, 17 Jun 2018 15:29:58 +0300) List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: ST Cc: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr > From: ST > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou , Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 15:29:58 +0300 > > 1. Do you agree that the vast majority of all the documents in human > history were/are EITHER ltr OR rtl? Meaning that mixed ltr/rtl texts are > minority that we should not take care of... > 2. Do you agree that for pure ltr texts org headings should appear to > the left and for pure rtl texts org headings should appear to the right? > > If you agree with both (1) and (2) - we should put nil as default value, > as this will enable (2). I agree with (1) and (2), but your conclusion doesn't follow from that. The value nil means that the base directionality of _each_paragraph_ is determined dynamically. It does NOT mean that the whole buffer will have the same directionality for all of its paragraphs. With nil, some paragraphs could have RTL direction, and others LTR. Worse, headings could have one direction and their bodies another. A single character at the beginning of a paragraph might change that paragraph's base direction. You don't want that with your users. > I'm so eager to change the defaults because we start a project where we > have many non_technically_savvy Windows-people who need to edit rtl org > files in Emacs (which is a challenge on its own). So we want the > experience to be as smooth as possible, but right now rtl users are > disadvantaged for no reason (as with nil - BOTH ltr AND rtl views can be > achieved). Users of RTL languages should have bidi-paragraph-direction in Org buffers set to right-to-left, not to nil. The value of nil will sometimes cause the heading to appear at the left while the body appears on the right, or vice versa, which is the worst of all worlds. I see no reason why non-technically-savvy people couldn't learn that they need to set a variable when they start editing text of a known directionality. That's what MS-Word users do all the time, right? And if you want to make it even easier for them, make a site-wide init file they will all use.