From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id YMxjGjFjRGJHVAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:03:29 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8D9KFzFjRGIPswAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:03:29 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F260A83B for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 16:03:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53914 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZYux-0002fO-Rb for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 10:03:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35206) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZYir-00054K-Bb for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:50:53 -0400 Received: from mout-p-102.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.152]:48246) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZYip-0006dX-0E for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:50:53 -0400 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-102.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4KT79q5dRcz9sQH for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:50:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5d961389-bc4f-d9ba-3b6b-adee1a520069@mailbox.org> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1648648237; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=KiwWiKV0EIhb90S95leDRvFXOu+fwDjTnxdjbkBdieQ=; b=X4/muEC8rTik0L2d3cdjD6Pb8sU0I5j7lzJ8W8vOVUyMEDw1KLHOcChwX9geoxqo+4PkkZ 3UgCEIeuHDLkG3FCR0rqqiqPuuOcaJDc3VgwTu1xaKhislR+EclTWqi+m3qq8QCdRtKX3J 87I1kBcXtI8mcG3cIwzkN/dGT2BFlSYo72C/6nrO5vJ+53aKC9GtKieuCwQMAh0IbNorJC ul2/qtK238PRcWsTB225xF3m1ywKrhMYCQM+k2n+3EI+fq0iVEgTlk650lUe4d9lTPKrOa xPKMwED9wXD3Wvoit/TaRcuteb2Q+qbM7wqeE9/jP4RNTQ/4MjcKHz56nx/+wg== Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:50:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 References: <87wngosqvm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Denis Maier To: Org Mode List In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.152; envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-102.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1648649005; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=KiwWiKV0EIhb90S95leDRvFXOu+fwDjTnxdjbkBdieQ=; b=hK6ScrLn9rldc3wNGMyhA1qhTvSk9mYQiF4t8Fyh0KkPWunZsxdJdf5lkAgn9fYt8Wlje3 cgxR3VqZ/IgPK0U2RXZYpQU+ollovk4nUKUkc9uN0j0CxCKip06a/yeaEODVtw5Yd23n9+ lqtv+zI+OleksJ15MQkkjBTYKlsgTXGIsQ2PCOXSSU+IAyy1ccilggOtVfUq9BSWrBaIvf WixllX5MtMfwdwr+4EdWrORL2p00rG2FarcoI/qSE8dTQVPB9D2MUr0vtyngqM8nd6rd84 dLtaXoBDjZ1owz3ikc2popo+kpTIatvC7dDIdOg/mrphkPGz6vP9HGLNay6kIg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1648649005; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=g8NGQBGEPj8tbbNdz8lWTC1EDHik5oVTsw6s55FowZ6lOxrQ7d+rV/TTk5asKHQ37eJRyA aywfHSojjc3Gp6INzJC4rMGzF/ii57x/rG48zpdJSlOwmOQTer0FG3NdLickfvgaBql9se rIBFijHONWBHsYsIoPhlFbcMyoZVGhddma4mwC9hP255IVP55LvivK6SWUS8VXxKz9Di8i WFclkzBPccFTmGC6a4phetJUFqGplpXE/7t1+0X/ubyyc0yy9RYzcq0ppjzHbosYjRp/eR 6FeiNm9N6OKQ5GFY4uo8eIbIVHzx/C0a7vEatOiApmfMC1jCzg4sWSazwpz0Jw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="X4/muEC8"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.57 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="X4/muEC8"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2F260A83B X-Spam-Score: -5.57 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: jNNplFm275eo Am 29.03.2022 um 18:14 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 11:23 AM Max Nikulin wrote: > ... > >>>> You even have managed to convince me that, besides adding missing style >>>> names, some existing ones should be adjusted. noauthor/bare for citeyear >>>> example makes for me much more sense ... >>> >>> This does need some attention, but there are wrinkles here. >>> >>> Citeyear is specific to author-date styles, while noauthor is intended >>> to be more general. >> >> Anyway citation style is rather specific for a particular CSL style. I >> tried some styles: >> https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/ieee.csl >> https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/american-physics-society.csl >> nature.csl science.csl and for all these styles even "author" is >> meaningless since they are numeric styles. > > Yes. I think it's more relevant in author-date to note styles. I > believe biblatex has a command relevant here, but Denis knows biblatex > better than I. I'm not sure I understand the question here. What command should be in biblatex? There's \citeauthor if that's what you've meant. > >> So it is not more general. Switching CSL style means necessity to update >> styles in each citations (unless it is possible to specify global or >> per-cite mapping). > > Not really. Arguably the most important style is "text", which applies > to any output style; author-date, note-based, numeric. > > When you start getting into some of the others, the range of styles a > given style may apply to shrinks. > > But you might say author-date styles are pretty dependent on such > local citation modification. If those are output to a style that has > no such notions (like a numeric one), then a processor can just ignore > it. Just to add to this: When Bruce and I have worked on that list of styles we found that portability can only be ensured when using high-level commands (such as biblatex's autocite), but once you start using low-level commands like citeyear etc. you really lose that portability to a certain degree. > >> It seems modifiers are set of boolean flags (positive "year" or negative >> "suppress-author") in citeproc.el, set of values in natbib, and a kind >> of hierarchy in org-cite. From my point of view, set of constrains >> (flags) is the most general variant in this list. > > I think that's right, and is how it's represented in a GUI app like > Zotero. But that's not so convenient in a plain text format. > > But it's a good way to explain the differences. > >>> I think it's probably a good idea to add "year" to the latex processors too. >> >> I agree. Negations are more confusing when an author needs just year. Well, negations have the advantage of being more portable. Say you have this: Doe argues X and Y [cite/noauthor:@doe]. It's perfectly clear what this should mean in a author-year, author-title or note-based styles, i.e., print the citation without the author element. (That's obviously a simplification since some citations might not have an author element, but let's just go with it for the moment.) In a numeric style you can just ignore the noauthor modifier and fall back to the default numeric citation. Now, consider this instead: Doe argues X and Y [cite/year:@doe]. This might work in author-year styles, but not in author-title, not in note-based styles, and not in numeric styles. Considering the problem that some citations don't have an author element I even considered using style names like [cite/head:@doe] [cite/tail:@doe] or [cite/car:@doe] [cite/cdr:@doe] or [cite/first:@doe] [cite/rest:@doe] But that obviously a bit esoteric. Denis