[FR] A more general case than footnotes

[FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

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Hi

Could exist a more general case than footnotes?

A kind of footnotes that work between different files?


Maybe the syntax could be [n:LABEL@ID]

Where the ID would be the unique ID of the heading.


Example:


** Reference
:PROPERTIES:
:ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
:END:

A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#) 
[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the 
immediate end of the line.
...


** Notes

[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] The hash character is important in orgmode.


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Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Ihor Radchenko]

Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:

> Could exist a more general case than footnotes?
>
> A kind of footnotes that work between different files?
>
>
> Maybe the syntax could be [n:LABEL@ID]
>
> Where the ID would be the unique ID of the heading.

> Example:
>
>
> ** Reference
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
> :END:
>
> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#) 
> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the 
> immediate end of the line.
> ...
>
>
> ** Notes
>
> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] The hash character is important in orgmode.

I am not sure if I understand. Is the above in different files?

Random suggestions:

1. Use citations
2. Use a normal footnote and #+include statement in its definition to
   incorporate a text from a different file during export.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

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Hi Ihor

The headings could be in different files, yes.

AFAIK, citations don't link two exact points. Footnotes do.

I don't understand the option of "include", but I think it wouldn't be 
the case.


I really think footnotes would be a particular case of this option.

** Reference in file A
:PROPERTIES:
:ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
:END:

...
A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#)
*[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* and either a whitespace character or the
immediate end of the line.
...


** Notes in file B

*[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* The hash character is important in orgmode.



Thanks for reading


On 07/10/2023 13:12, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Maske<maske1foro@gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> Could exist a more general case than footnotes?
>>
>> A kind of footnotes that work between different files?
>>
>>
>> Maybe the syntax could be [n:LABEL@ID]
>>
>> Where the ID would be the unique ID of the heading.
>> Example:
>>
>>
>> ** Reference
>> :PROPERTIES:
>> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
>> :END:
>>
>> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#)
>> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the
>> immediate end of the line.
>> ...
>>
>>
>> ** Notes
>>
>> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] The hash character is important in orgmode.
> I am not sure if I understand. Is the above in different files?
>
> Random suggestions:
>
> 1. Use citations
> 2. Use a normal footnote and #+include statement in its definition to
>     incorporate a text from a different file during export.
>

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Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Ihor Radchenko]

Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:

> The headings could be in different files, yes.
>
> AFAIK, citations don't link two exact points. Footnotes do.

Do you mean that you also want to jump back-and-forth between footnote
definition in the another file and its footnote references?

> I don't understand the option of "include", but I think it wouldn't be 
> the case.

See https://orgmode.org/manual/Include-Files.html

> I really think footnotes would be a particular case of this option.
>
> ** Reference in file A
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
> :END:
>
> ...
> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#)
> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* and either a whitespace character or the
> immediate end of the line.
> ...
>
>
> ** Notes in file B
>
> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* The hash character is important in orgmode.

May you explain the purpose of @978-84-... part?
You seem to assume that a footnote always has a single reference,
which may or may not be the case in practice.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

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On 07/10/2023 15:21, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Maske<maske1foro@gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> The headings could be in different files, yes.
>>
>> AFAIK, citations don't link two exact points. Footnotes do.
> Do you mean that you also want to jump back-and-forth between footnote
> definition in the another file and its footnote references?


Right: With C-c.

And maybe there could work directly commands like "org-footnote-action", 
being unneeded to create new commands like "org-note-action" with almost 
the same functionality.


>
>> I don't understand the option of "include", but I think it wouldn't be
>> the case.
> Seehttps://orgmode.org/manual/Include-Files.html
Thanks, I save it.
>
>> I really think footnotes would be a particular case of this option.
>>
>> ** Reference in file A
>> :PROPERTIES:
>> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
>> :END:
>>
>> ...
>> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#)
>> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* and either a whitespace character or the
>> immediate end of the line.
>> ...
>>
>>
>> ** Notes in file B
>>
>> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* The hash character is important in orgmode.
> May you explain the purpose of @978-84-... part?
> You seem to assume that a footnote always has a single reference,
> which may or may not be the case in practice.

If there would be more than one reference, a behavior like that of footnotes would be appropriate?

The purpose of the @978-84-... part:
@978-84-362-7195-9 would work like the ID for internal links: [[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]. That would allow jumping to the correct heading from any file.
I am not a programmer, so the syntax I am sure could be more solid.  Example:


** Reference in file A
:PROPERTIES:
:ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
:END:
...
A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#) [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the immediate end of the line.
...


** Notes in file B
[[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]: Link to heading in file A

[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]: Link to an exact point in file A. Where the point is defined by the LABEL 102, and the file can be find thanks to the ID 978-84-362-7195-9

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Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Ihor Radchenko]

Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:

>>>
>>> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* The hash character is important in orgmode.
>> May you explain the purpose of @978-84-... part?
>> You seem to assume that a footnote always has a single reference,
>> which may or may not be the case in practice.
>
> If there would be more than one reference, a behavior like that of footnotes would be appropriate?

If this was a question to me, I do not fully understand it.

> The purpose of the @978-84-... part:
> @978-84-362-7195-9 would work like the ID for internal links: [[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]. That would allow jumping to the correct heading from any file.

> I am not a programmer, so the syntax I am sure could be more solid.  Example:
>
>
> ** Reference in file A
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
> :END:
> ...
> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#) [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the immediate end of the line.
> ...
>
>
> ** Notes in file B
> [[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]: Link to heading in file A
>
> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]: Link to an exact point in file A. Where the point is defined by the LABEL 102, and the file can be find thanks to the ID 978-84-362-7195-9

I am a bit confused.
Do you propose footnotes to have definition in different file? Or do you
want a link to arbitrary point in different file?

For footnotes, we will need to arrange export to search the definition
and include it into the exported file, while links have different set of
requirements.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

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Hi, Ihor

I overlooked the aspect of exporting.

I propose links to arbitrary points in different files.

Furthermore, I think it would be a very nice new feature, probably more 
opinions than mine should be heard.

Thanks

On 08/10/2023 11:18, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Maske<maske1foro@gmail.com>  writes:
>
>>>> *[n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]* The hash character is important in orgmode.
>>> May you explain the purpose of @978-84-... part?
>>> You seem to assume that a footnote always has a single reference,
>>> which may or may not be the case in practice.
>> If there would be more than one reference, a behavior like that of footnotes would be appropriate?
> If this was a question to me, I do not fully understand it.
>
>> The purpose of the @978-84-... part:
>> @978-84-362-7195-9 would work like the ID for internal links: [[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]. That would allow jumping to the correct heading from any file.
>> I am not a programmer, so the syntax I am sure could be more solid.  Example:
>>
>>
>> ** Reference in file A
>> :PROPERTIES:
>> :ID:       978-84-362-7195-9
>> :END:
>> ...
>> A “comment line” starts with a hash character (#) [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9] and either a whitespace character or the immediate end of the line.
>> ...
>>
>>
>> ** Notes in file B
>> [[id:978-84-362-7195-9]]: Link to heading in file A
>>
>> [n:102@978-84-362-7195-9]: Link to an exact point in file A. Where the point is defined by the LABEL 102, and the file can be find thanks to the ID 978-84-362-7195-9
> I am a bit confused.
> Do you propose footnotes to have definition in different file? Or do you
> want a link to arbitrary point in different file?
>
> For footnotes, we will need to arrange export to search the definition
> and include it into the exported file, while links have different set of
> requirements.


I propose

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Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Ihor Radchenko]

Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:

> I propose links to arbitrary points in different files.
>
> Furthermore, I think it would be a very nice new feature, probably more 
> opinions than mine should be heard.

See:
- https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/
- https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/
- https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/

The idea is not new, but we need someone to implement it one way or another.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

Hi Ihor

It seems Rick gave a step towards the direction of links to points? It 
would seem that if the Search Option would be available for internal 
links, it would work. Then maybe we would just miss a convenient way for 
generating unique <<labels>>.

Bests.

On 09/10/2023 13:24, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
> See:
> -
> -
> -
> 
> The idea is not new, but we need someone to implement it one way or another.
> 
> -- 
> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode contributor,
> Learn more about Org mode at <>.
> Support Org development at <>,
> or support my work at <>
> 
> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/  <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/>
Rick is suggesting the use of internal links with the search option of 
file links. I believe this would be a positive step towards improving 
the linking ecosystem. By relying on unique IDs rather than file names, 
these links would remain functional even if headings are refiled or 
files are moved.
However, I don't see the need for ID inheritance.

> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/  <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/>

Hello Alan.
It is possible to achieve this by utilizing the Search Option of file 
links. For instance, you can link to the point 
<<20231014T033851.173165>> from any other file using the following 
format: [[file:~/xx.org::20231014T033851.173165]]

> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/  <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/>
Hi, Samuel. A similar approach is feasible, but it involves using file 
links instead of internal links.



>> I propose links to arbitrary points in different files.  > > Furthermore, I think it would be a very nice new feature, probably 
> more > opinions than mine should be heard.
> 
> Link <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87bkd8m41s.fsf@localhost/>
> 

[FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Maske]

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Hi Ihor

It seems Rick gave a step towards the direction of links to points? It 
would seem that if the Search Option would be available for internal 
links, it would work. Then maybe we would just miss a convenient way for 
generating unique <<labels>>.

Bests.

On 09/10/2023 13:24, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
> See:
> -
> -
> -
>
> The idea is not new, but we need someone to implement it one way or 
> another.
>
> -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode contributor,
> Learn more about Org mode at <>.
> Support Org development at <>,
> or support my work at <>
>
> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/ 
> <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/>
Rick is suggesting the use of internal links with the search option of 
file links. I believe this would be a positive step towards improving 
the linking ecosystem. By relying on unique IDs rather than file names, 
these links would remain functional even if headings are refiled or 
files are moved.
However, I don't see the need for ID inheritance.

> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/ 
> <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/>

Hello Alan.
It is possible to achieve this by utilizing the Search Option of file 
links. For instance, you can link to the point 
<<20231014T033851.173165>> from any other file using the following 
format: [[file:~/xx.org::20231014T033851.173165]]

> https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/ 
> <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/>
Hi, Samuel. A similar approach is feasible, but it involves using file 
links instead of internal links.



>> I propose links to arbitrary points in different files. > > 
>> Furthermore, I think it would be a very nice new feature, probably 
> more > opinions than mine should be heard.
>
> Link <https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87bkd8m41s.fsf@localhost/>
>

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Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Karl Fogel]

Ihor Radchenko writes: 
>Maske <maske1foro@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I propose links to arbitrary points in different files.
>>
>> Furthermore, I think it would be a very nice new feature,
>> probably more opinions than mine should be heard.
>
>See:
>- 
>https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/118435e8-0b20-46fd-af6a-88de8e19fac6@app.fastmail.com/
>- 
>https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJniy+OVD0NCWZZTPit5T7wvsbLbgLLXZmPub5tgq3gsHsGhYw@mail.gmail.com/
>- 
>https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/CAJcAo8s=cjNY-7-mA1zQk3R9HEWYreTatdVeHfJ39ccM9=kMog@mail.gmail.com/
>
>The idea is not new, but we need someone to implement it one way
>or another.

At my company, I implemented something that (I think) does what 
Maske and those earlier threads are getting at:

https://code.librehq.com/ots/ots-tools/-/blob/main/emacs-tools/oref.el

We often use it with Org Mode files, but it's not specific to Org 
Mode -- it works with any plaintext format.  In fact, our most 
common use case is cross-referencing from precise locations in 
LaTeX files to precise locations in Org Mode files.

A couple of days ago I happened to post [1] on the Emacs 
Humanities list about a updated version of oref.el.  Maske noticed 
that post, and referred me to this thread here.

My original announcement post from a year ago [2] is a good place 
to get a quick overview of how oref.el works.

At the time I wrote oref.el, I didn't know about org-id.el.  But 
it wouldn't be too hard to make oref.el automagically compatible 
with Org ":ID:" properties.  I.e., `oref-do-ref' would jump to 
them, copy them, etc, in just the same way it currently does with 
native oref references.  And the oref ref files cache would just 
become the union of `oref-ref-files-cache' and `org-id-files'. 
While I'll hand-wave a bit on the details right now, I think there 
is a natural compatibility available.  If people are interested in 
this extension of oref.el, let me know.

Best regards,
-Karl

[1] 
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-humanities/2023-10/msg00001.html

[2] 
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-humanities/2022-10/msg00009.html

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Suhail Singh]

Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:

> My original announcement post from a year ago [2] is a good place to get a quick
> overview of how oref.el works.
>
> ...
>
> [2] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-humanities/2022-10/msg00009.html

From [2]:
> Thus, in "jones-interview.org" you might have this:
>
> Blah blah blah and then she said that the rockets had reached speeds
> of .3c in testing scenarios on a few occasions.  [ref:1c3a90a9]

Is it intended to be [ref:1c3a90a9] or is it supposed to be
[[ref:1c3a90a9]] (i.e., a regular link without description)?

On a related note, how are the references exported?

-- 
Suhail

Re: [FR] A more general case than footnotes

[Karl Fogel]

On 02 Nov 2023, Suhail Singh wrote:
>Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> writes:
>
>> My original announcement post from a year ago [2] is a good 
>> place to get a quick
>> overview of how oref.el works.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> [2] 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-humanities/2022-10/msg00009.html
>
>>From [2]:
>> Thus, in "jones-interview.org" you might have this:
>>
>> Blah blah blah and then she said that the rockets had reached 
>> speeds
>> of .3c in testing scenarios on a few occasions.  [ref:1c3a90a9]
>
>Is it intended to be [ref:1c3a90a9] or is it supposed to be
>[[ref:1c3a90a9]] (i.e., a regular link without description)?

The former: [ref:1c3a90a9]

oref.el isn't specific to Org Mode -- it's for use with any 
text-based format.  In fact, our company's typical usage involves 
references that cross between text files of different formats: 
e.g., LaTeX <--> Markdown, Org <--> DocBook Lite XML, etc.

Now, "[[ref:1c3a90a9]]" contains "[ref:1c3a90a9]" of course, so in 
an Org Mode file one could format oref origin links as regular Org 
Mode links without descriptions.  But personally I find that I'm 
never doing that -- I just put "[ref:1c3a90a9]".

>On a related note, how are the references exported?

There is no provision for exporting.  That's an Org Mode concept, 
but not an oref.el concept.

Best regards,
-Karl