Org Writer's room

Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

Hi Everyone,

Prompted by a couple of recent threads on help-gnu-emacs
(http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/87787), I am trying to
create a minor mode for org that would implement some of the cool
features of Scrivener
(http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php).

Scrivener is  a closed-source but still very cool authoring tool for
writers.  After testdriving it, I find that Scrivener's interface
really makes it easy to concentrate on writing while still being aware
of the overall structure of a big project.  Lots of my daughter's
friends use it for National Novel Writing Month, in which they try to
write a 50,000 word novel in 30 days; and I'm finding that more and
more of my students have switched to Scrivener from Word or
Libreoffice, over which it offers a lot of improvements (though it's
not so good atthings like footnotes).

Emacs is pretty different from Scrivener (!!), but I still think we
could implement some of its features, and that doing so would make
emacs/org-mode a *way* better environment for writers.  So I've
started working on org-writers-room.el.  I'm a terrible coder, and I
can't think in Lisp at all, so I think the code is pretty bad!  And
right now it doesn't do much -- just sets up the basic window layout
and define one or two functions  But the ambitions are described in
more detail on the github repository:

https://github.com/titaniumbones/org-writers-room

I would be really grateful for feedback from both coders and writers.
I'd especially love it if anyone had some ideas on how to implement
the missing features, or better yet, was able to write some code for
the project!  As I say, I feel a little over my head when it comes to
elisp.

Thanks very much!
Matt

Re: Org Writer's room

[Andrew Hyatt]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2138 bytes --]

This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.  Of
course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.


On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> Prompted by a couple of recent threads on help-gnu-emacs
> (http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.help/87787), I am trying to
> create a minor mode for org that would implement some of the cool
> features of Scrivener
> (http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php).
>
> Scrivener is  a closed-source but still very cool authoring tool for
> writers.  After testdriving it, I find that Scrivener's interface
> really makes it easy to concentrate on writing while still being aware
> of the overall structure of a big project.  Lots of my daughter's
> friends use it for National Novel Writing Month, in which they try to
> write a 50,000 word novel in 30 days; and I'm finding that more and
> more of my students have switched to Scrivener from Word or
> Libreoffice, over which it offers a lot of improvements (though it's
> not so good atthings like footnotes).
>
> Emacs is pretty different from Scrivener (!!), but I still think we
> could implement some of its features, and that doing so would make
> emacs/org-mode a *way* better environment for writers.  So I've
> started working on org-writers-room.el.  I'm a terrible coder, and I
> can't think in Lisp at all, so I think the code is pretty bad!  And
> right now it doesn't do much -- just sets up the basic window layout
> and define one or two functions  But the ambitions are described in
> more detail on the github repository:
>
> https://github.com/titaniumbones/org-writers-room
>
> I would be really grateful for feedback from both coders and writers.
> I'd especially love it if anyone had some ideas on how to implement
> the missing features, or better yet, was able to write some code for
> the project!  As I say, I feel a little over my head when it comes to
> elisp.
>
> Thanks very much!
> Matt
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2870 bytes --]

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rasmus]

Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:

> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.

I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.

–Rasmus

-- 
Vote for proprietary math!

Re: Org Writer's room

[Alan L Tyree]

On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>
> –Rasmus
>
I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do 
you see as making org a *way* better writing environment?

Cheers,
Alan

-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206		sip:172385@iptel.org

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3437 bytes --]

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>
>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>
>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>
>> –Rasmus
>>
> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
> --
> Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel:  04 2748 6206              sip:172385@iptel.org
>
>

Hi Everyone,

Sorry, I sent that last email off too quickly as I was realizing that
I actually had /work/ to do while I was at work...

Scrivener is a really neat program, which is designed to help writers
organize and manage large writing problems while staying focused on
the actual task of writing.  Like org-mode, it has pretty powerful
tools for manipulating the structure of a text; in general it is (from
what I can tell) way less powerful than org-mode (what isn't?) but for
a writer that may sometimes be an advantage -- it removes
distractions.

From what I can tell (and I am not a very experienced user) one of the
main attractions of Scrivener is the metaphors it uses to organize
your work.  Each project is called a 'Binder'; it's where you keep
your drafts, your notes, and any supporting materials for your
project.  When you work on a project, you can "open up" your binder
and look at the materials on a 2-dimensional canvas to sort through
them.  So, it's like taking your papers out of your binder and
spreading them out on your desk.

Each element in a binder is also represented as an "index card".  On
the front of hte index card is a title and a synopsis; on the back is
the actual text you've been writing.

In combination, these two metaphors are a really helpful way of
thinking about your project, I think.

In org-mode, it would be very difficult to replicate the
almost-tactile feel of dragging index cards around a canvas to
organize them.  (the .org file structure is actually probably really
well-suited to this, but one would need to write a whole other
program,I imagine in Javascript/HTML5, to implement the dragging).
However, some of the cool things about the Scrivener interface *can*
be implemented in org.

Take a look at the attached screenshots.  I admire the 3-column
layout, with an outline view in the left-hand column, metadata
displayed on the right-hand side, and a main panel in the center which
is used either to display index-card representations of the document
structure, or the actual text that one intends to edit.

To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
metadata yet).

Does this help clarify a bit?  Anyone think it's interesting?

[-- Attachment #2: scrivener-index-cards.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 935378 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: scrivener-01.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 277295 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #4: writers-room.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 238385 bytes --]

Re: Org Writer's room

[Scot Becker]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3884 bytes --]

As a now-seldom but was-daily user of Org-mode (work changed) who has long
been fascinated with Scrivener.  I think this project is a great idea.
And emacs/org seems a very fertile ground to implement it in.

Scot

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:21 AM, Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
> >>
> >> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
> >>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
> >>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
> >>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
> >>
> >> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
> >> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
> >>
> >> –Rasmus
> >>
> > I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do
> you
> > see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Alan
> >
> > --
> > Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> > Tel:  04 2748 6206              sip:172385@iptel.org
> >
> >
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Sorry, I sent that last email off too quickly as I was realizing that
> I actually had /work/ to do while I was at work...
>
> Scrivener is a really neat program, which is designed to help writers
> organize and manage large writing problems while staying focused on
> the actual task of writing.  Like org-mode, it has pretty powerful
> tools for manipulating the structure of a text; in general it is (from
> what I can tell) way less powerful than org-mode (what isn't?) but for
> a writer that may sometimes be an advantage -- it removes
> distractions.
>
> From what I can tell (and I am not a very experienced user) one of the
> main attractions of Scrivener is the metaphors it uses to organize
> your work.  Each project is called a 'Binder'; it's where you keep
> your drafts, your notes, and any supporting materials for your
> project.  When you work on a project, you can "open up" your binder
> and look at the materials on a 2-dimensional canvas to sort through
> them.  So, it's like taking your papers out of your binder and
> spreading them out on your desk.
>
> Each element in a binder is also represented as an "index card".  On
> the front of hte index card is a title and a synopsis; on the back is
> the actual text you've been writing.
>
> In combination, these two metaphors are a really helpful way of
> thinking about your project, I think.
>
> In org-mode, it would be very difficult to replicate the
> almost-tactile feel of dragging index cards around a canvas to
> organize them.  (the .org file structure is actually probably really
> well-suited to this, but one would need to write a whole other
> program,I imagine in Javascript/HTML5, to implement the dragging).
> However, some of the cool things about the Scrivener interface *can*
> be implemented in org.
>
> Take a look at the attached screenshots.  I admire the 3-column
> layout, with an outline view in the left-hand column, metadata
> displayed on the right-hand side, and a main panel in the center which
> is used either to display index-card representations of the document
> structure, or the actual text that one intends to edit.
>
> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
> metadata yet).
>
> Does this help clarify a bit?  Anyone think it's interesting?
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4779 bytes --]

Re: Org Writer's room

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>
>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>
>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>
>>> –Rasmus
>>>
>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
>> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?

[...]

> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
> metadata yet).

I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing
properties around the current point -- it could include properties from
the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure returned by
`org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the
"inspect element" command in Firefox.

For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory
(or even the org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.

Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.

E

Re: Org Writer's room

[Jambunathan K]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 480 bytes --]


I am attaching screen shot of LibreOffice UI.

On the left is the navbar.
- You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a captioned
  figure.

On the right is the style - one can choose char, paragraph, frame, list
styles - at point.  
- In case of Org it will probably be element or point at point.

In the center, toward lower right is the jump to next and prev element
arrows.

So the global view, doc view and local view seems to be pretty universal
across all UIs.


[-- Attachment #2: LibreOffice.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 163102 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 1820 bytes --]





> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>
>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>>>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>
>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>
>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
>>> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>
> [...]
>
>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
>> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
>> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
>> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
>> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
>> metadata yet).
>
> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing
> properties around the current point -- it could include properties from
> the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure returned by
> `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
> current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the
> "inspect element" command in Firefox.
>
> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory
> (or even the org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>
> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>
> E
>
>
>

-- 

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
> 
> I am attaching screen shot of LibreOffice UI.

Nice - I cusomised libreoffice immediately to look like that - nice.

> 
> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a captioned 
> figure.

Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in ecb
(Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how
it looks there.

> 
> On the right is the style - one can choose char, paragraph, frame, list styles - at point. - In
> case of Org it will probably be element or point at point.

Not clear what you mean, but I would imagine the properties at cursor location (with the different
levels of the properties from file via section to block)

> 
> In the center, toward lower right is the jump to next and prev element arrows.
> 
> So the global view, doc view and local view seems to be pretty universal across all UIs.

Well - kind of ecb for org files - saying that, it might be possible to use ecb for that?

Cheers,

Rainer


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few screenshots that
>>>>>> give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course, they could be completely
>>>>>> fake, but it would be helpful to understand for people like me who haven't used
>>>>>> Scrivener.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description, but I
>>>>> still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>> 
>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>> 
>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see as making
>>>> org a *way* better writing environment?
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it keeps you
>>> focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you feel the need to
>>> flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version
>>> of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the metadata yet).
>> 
>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties around the
>> current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure
>> returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the current
>> headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the "inspect element" command in
>> Firefox.
>> 
>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the org-goto
>> interface) might provide some inspiration.
>> 
>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>> 
>> E
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAYVYACgkQoYgNqgF2egrAkQCghEYQ6YoPYEFtxMNb19tOJ6R4
zf4AoIQHcvibLePJexu2zXAoUHnWAxNX
=Syhc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 10:11, Rainer M Krug wrote:
> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
> 
>> I am attaching screen shot of LibreOffice UI.
> 
> Nice - I cusomised libreoffice immediately to look like that - nice.
> 
> 
>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a captioned
>>  figure.
> 
> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in ecb 
> (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for
> how it looks there.

Sorry - meant speedbar.

> 
> 
>> On the right is the style - one can choose char, paragraph, frame, list styles - at point. -
>> In case of Org it will probably be element or point at point.
> 
> Not clear what you mean, but I would imagine the properties at cursor location (with the
> different levels of the properties from file via section to block)
> 
> 
>> In the center, toward lower right is the jump to next and prev element arrows.
> 
>> So the global view, doc view and local view seems to be pretty universal across all UIs.
> 
> Well - kind of ecb for org files - saying that, it might be possible to use ecb for that?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few screenshots
>>>>>>> that give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course, they could be
>>>>>>> completely fake, but it would be helpful to understand for people like me who
>>>>>>> haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description, but I 
>>>>>> still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see as
>>>>> making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>> 
>>> [...]
>>> 
>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it keeps you 
>>>> focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you feel the need to 
>>>> flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version 
>>>> of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the metadata yet).
>>> 
>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties around
>>> the current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer, from the
>>> structure returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
>>> current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the "inspect element"
>>> command in Firefox.
>>> 
>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the
>>> org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>> 
>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>> 
>>> E
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAYgAACgkQoYgNqgF2egoziQCcDqdVSh6148HZmZYvkKN6uz4j
fWMAn3Ol1JQjTWf7IC62XsxIfX4fnJbh
=6HXi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

OK - Left side: is present in ecb. I installed ecb from MELPA (the other version does not work
with emacs 24 and the cedet version) and I have the navigation panel - very nice. ecb, I am back.

Cheers,

Rainer



On 06/12/12 10:14, Rainer M Krug wrote:
> On 06/12/12 10:11, Rainer M Krug wrote:
>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
> 
>>> I am attaching screen shot of LibreOffice UI.
> 
>> Nice - I cusomised libreoffice immediately to look like that - nice.
> 
> 
>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a
>>> captioned figure.
> 
>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in ecb
>>  (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on http://ecb.sourceforge.net/
>> for how it looks there.
> 
> Sorry - meant speedbar.
> 
> 
> 
>>> On the right is the style - one can choose char, paragraph, frame, list styles - at point.
>>> - In case of Org it will probably be element or point at point.
> 
>> Not clear what you mean, but I would imagine the properties at cursor location (with the 
>> different levels of the properties from file via section to block)
> 
> 
>>> In the center, toward lower right is the jump to next and prev element arrows.
> 
>>> So the global view, doc view and local view seems to be pretty universal across all UIs.
> 
>> Well - kind of ecb for org files - saying that, it might be possible to use ecb for that?
> 
>> Cheers,
> 
>> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few screenshots 
>>>>>>>> that give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course, they could be 
>>>>>>>> completely fake, but it would be helpful to understand for people like me who 
>>>>>>>> haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description, but I
>>>>>>>  still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see as 
>>>>>> making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>>> 
>>>> [...]
>>>> 
>>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it keeps
>>>>> you focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you feel the
>>>>> need to flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very
>>>>> primitive version of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do
>>>>> the metadata yet).
>>>> 
>>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties around 
>>>> the current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer, from the 
>>>> structure returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of
>>>> the current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the "inspect
>>>> element" command in Firefox.
>>>> 
>>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the 
>>>> org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>>> 
>>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>>> 
>>>> E
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAc2sACgkQoYgNqgF2egpCCQCeKcVYX9xREB+4xs+fVM1KOkcm
6poAnj7L9cC+ZWmosnpBypqbeQa9BQoa
=deC5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[David Engster]

Rainer M. Krug writes:
> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any
>> heading, a table or a captioned
>> figure.
>
> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in
> a long time, but in ecb
> (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on
> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how
> it looks there.

Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports
'imenu', so it pretty much works right away, also without ECB. Just do

(require 'speedbar)
(speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")

and fire up speedbar with

M-x speedbar

You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section
headings. It should also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or
buffer which only shows the tags of the current file, like ECB does, but
I would have to look that up if that's important.

-David

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 11:51, David Engster wrote:
> Rainer M. Krug writes:
>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a
>>> captioned figure.
>> 
>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in
>> ecb (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on 
>> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how it looks there.
> 
> Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports 'imenu', so it pretty much
> works right away, also without ECB. Just do
> 
> (require 'speedbar) (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
> 
> and fire up speedbar with
> 
> M-x speedbar You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section headings.
> It should also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or

Very nice - and much easier.

> buffer which only shows the tags of the current file, like ECB does, but I would have to look
> that up if that's important.

I actually like, that it shows all buffers, which makes switching much easier.

And also, multi file setup can be handled much easier this way.

Now the next step would be to
a) automatically start the speedbar when an org file is opened and
b) shows the buffers.

Interestingly, speedbar shows ascii [+] when I put the above mentioned commands in my emacs.org,
but icons, when I execute them manually after emacs has started?

Cheers,

Rainer

> 
> -David
> 


- -- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys.
(Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:      Rainer@krugs.de

Skype:      RMkrug
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAgJAACgkQoYgNqgF2egrsEgCcCazmeQlJd4CLpq4x3d+exYxs
TAcAn2FSmBWq/DlbL/ByQiJsFCRViDsu
=o3GA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Rainer M Krug <r.m.krug@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 06/12/12 11:51, David Engster wrote:
>> Rainer M. Krug writes:
>>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a
>>>> captioned figure.
>>>
>>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in
>>> ecb (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on
>>> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how it looks there.
>>
>> Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports 'imenu', so it pretty much
>> works right away, also without ECB. Just do
>>
>> (require 'speedbar) (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
>>
>> and fire up speedbar with
>>
>> M-x speedbar You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section headings.
>> It should also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or
>
> Very nice - and much easier.
>
>> buffer which only shows the tags of the current file, like ECB does, but I would have to look
>> that up if that's important.
>
> I actually like, that it shows all buffers, which makes switching much easier.
>
> And also, multi file setup can be handled much easier this way.
>
> Now the next step would be to
> a) automatically start the speedbar when an org file is opened and
> b) shows the buffers.

It would be neat if clicking on a link in speedbar opened up an
_indirect_ buffer using org-tree-to-indirect-buffer.  I like having
just the one node available as a way to ensure concentration on the
task at hand.
>

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 12:55, Matt Price wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Rainer M Krug <r.m.krug@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> On 06/12/12 11:51, David Engster wrote:
>>> Rainer M. Krug writes:
>>>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>>>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a 
>>>>> captioned figure.
>>>> 
>>>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but
>>>> in ecb (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on 
>>>> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how it looks there.
>>> 
>>> Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports 'imenu', so it pretty
>>> much works right away, also without ECB. Just do
>>> 
>>> (require 'speedbar) (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
>>> 
>>> and fire up speedbar with
>>> 
>>> M-x speedbar You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section
>>> headings. It should also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or
>> 
>> Very nice - and much easier.
>> 
>>> buffer which only shows the tags of the current file, like ECB does, but I would have to
>>> look that up if that's important.
>> 
>> I actually like, that it shows all buffers, which makes switching much easier.
>> 
>> And also, multi file setup can be handled much easier this way.
>> 
>> Now the next step would be to a) automatically start the speedbar when an org file is opened
>> and b) shows the buffers.
> 
> It would be neat if clicking on a link in speedbar opened up an _indirect_ buffer using
> org-tree-to-indirect-buffer.  I like having just the one node available as a way to ensure
> concentration on the task at hand.

Sorry - I mean that the speedbar only shows the open buffers, and not the files.

Rainer


>> 
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAiGoACgkQoYgNqgF2egoOeACeNp9AjJ6pNB4hqGInOS50HItz
94YAn0/mTT3gS4bOU4N48zTn3QP2EAEr
=R/ci
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 5:51 AM, David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> wrote:
> Rainer M. Krug writes:
>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any
>>> heading, a table or a captioned
>>> figure.
>>
>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in
>> a long time, but in ecb
>> (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on
>> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how
>> it looks there.
>
> Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports
> 'imenu', so it pretty much works right away, also without ECB. Just do
>
> (require 'speedbar)
> (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
>
> and fire up speedbar with
>
> M-x speedbar
>
> You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section
> headings. It should also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or
> buffer which only shows the tags of the current file, like ECB does, but
> I would have to look that up if that's important.

that sounds cool.  I hadn't really used speedbar before, but now I can
see the attraction.

(1) do you know if it's possible to get the speedbar buffer in a
window instead of a frame?
(2) org headings are not showing up for me with those two lines of
code.  Evaluating
(speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
gives
 "\\(\\(\\.\\(org\\|[ch]\\(\\+\\+\\|pp\\|c\\|h\\|xx\\)?\\|tex\\(i\\(nfo\\)?\\)?\\|el\\|emacs\\|l\\|lsp\\|p\\|java\\|js\\|f\\(90\\|77\\|or\\)?\\|ad[abs]\\|p[lm]\\|tcl\\|m\\|scm\\|pm\\|py\\|g\\|s?html\\|ma?k\\)\\)\\|\\([Mm]akefile\\(\\.in\\)?\\)\\)$"

but trying to click on the "+" symbol in the speedbar frame next to an
org file gives only:

Sorry, no support for a file of that extension

Is it possible I need something else to make the extension work?

A speedbar buffer in the same frame that shows only headings of the
current file would be fantastic...

>
> -David
>
>

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 12:50, Matt Price wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 5:51 AM, David Engster <deng@randomsample.de> wrote:
>> Rainer M. Krug writes:
>>> On 06/12/12 09:36, Jambunathan K wrote:
>>>> On the left is the navbar. - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a
>>>> captioned figure.
>>> 
>>> Couldn't the navbar from emacs be used for that? I haven't used it in a long time, but in
>>> ecb (Emacs Code Browswer) it is used for this - see Screenshots on 
>>> http://ecb.sourceforge.net/ for how it looks there.
>> 
>> Speedbar can use 'imenu' to get a list of tags, and org supports 'imenu', so it pretty much
>> works right away, also without ECB. Just do
>> 
>> (require 'speedbar) (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
>> 
>> and fire up speedbar with
>> 
>> M-x speedbar
>> 
>> You can now be able to click on org files and you should see the section headings. It should
>> also be possible to generate a speedbar frame or buffer which only shows the tags of the
>> current file, like ECB does, but I would have to look that up if that's important.
> 
> that sounds cool.  I hadn't really used speedbar before, but now I can see the attraction.
> 
> (1) do you know if it's possible to get the speedbar buffer in a window instead of a frame? (2)
> org headings are not showing up for me with those two lines of code.  Evaluating 
> (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org") gives 
> "\\(\\(\\.\\(org\\|[ch]\\(\\+\\+\\|pp\\|c\\|h\\|xx\\)?\\|tex\\(i\\(nfo\\)?\\)?\\|el\\|emacs\\|l\\|lsp\\|p\\|java\\|js\\|f\\(90\\|77\\|or\\)?\\|ad[abs]\\|p[lm]\\|tcl\\|m\\|scm\\|pm\\|py\\|g\\|s?html\\|ma?k\\)\\)\\|\\([Mm]akefile\\(\\.in\\)?\\)\\)$"
>
>  but trying to click on the "+" symbol in the speedbar frame next to an org file gives only:
> 
> Sorry, no support for a file of that extension
> 
> Is it possible I need something else to make the extension work?

Can't help you there - works for me and I am by nio means an expert.

> 
> A speedbar buffer in the same frame that shows only headings of the current file would be
> fantastic...
> 
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAiOoACgkQoYgNqgF2egqAYQCdGU3Wsoquj67JnhRu21Lz/FIv
tAEAn2nedsz+aHoJ8TDYCvM+pmyxhMnd
=bNNW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[David Engster]

Matt Price writes:
> (1) do you know if it's possible to get the speedbar buffer in a
> window instead of a frame?

I initially thought that would be easy. Turns out it isn't. ECB uses all
kinds of 'defadvice' to achieve that.

There's a package sr-speedbar at

http://www.emacswiki.org/SrSpeedbar

but I don't know if that one's still working.

> (2) org headings are not showing up for me with those two lines of
> code.  Evaluating
> (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org")
> gives
>  "\\(\\(\\.\\(org\\|[ch]\\(\\+\\+\\|pp\\|c\\|h\\|xx\\)?\\|tex\\(i\\(nfo\\)?\\)?\\|el\\|emacs\\|l\\|lsp\\|p\\|java\\|js\\|f\\(90\\|77\\|or\\)?\\|ad[abs]\\|p[lm]\\|tcl\\|m\\|scm\\|pm\\|py\\|g\\|s?html\\|ma?k\\)\\)\\|\\([Mm]akefile\\(\\.in\\)?\\)\\)$"
>
> but trying to click on the "+" symbol in the speedbar frame next to an
> org file gives only:
>
> Sorry, no support for a file of that extension
>
> Is it possible I need something else to make the extension work?

I tried with 'emacs -Q' and it "works for me". Make sure you do the
above *before* firing up speedbar.

> A speedbar buffer in the same frame that shows only headings of the
> current file would be fantastic...

Instead of bending Speedbar to your will, maybe it's just easier if
you'd look at other solutions. As I've written, Speedbar simply resorts
to 'imenu' to get the tags. Calling 'imenu-add-to-menubar' will let you
generate a menu entry for the headings; that should also work with every
org file. Maybe there's a little package out there putting the imenu
headings in a buffer; it can't be very hard to do. Just take a look

http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ImenuMode

as a starting point.

-David

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 13:07, David Engster wrote:
> Matt Price writes:
>> (1) do you know if it's possible to get the speedbar buffer in a window instead of a frame?
> 
> I initially thought that would be easy. Turns out it isn't. ECB uses all kinds of 'defadvice'
> to achieve that.
> 
> There's a package sr-speedbar at
> 
> http://www.emacswiki.org/SrSpeedbar
> 
> but I don't know if that one's still working.

Just installed it and it is working.
Should solve this.

Rainer

> 
>> (2) org headings are not showing up for me with those two lines of code.  Evaluating 
>> (speedbar-add-supported-extension ".org") gives 
>> "\\(\\(\\.\\(org\\|[ch]\\(\\+\\+\\|pp\\|c\\|h\\|xx\\)?\\|tex\\(i\\(nfo\\)?\\)?\\|el\\|emacs\\|l\\|lsp\\|p\\|java\\|js\\|f\\(90\\|77\\|or\\)?\\|ad[abs]\\|p[lm]\\|tcl\\|m\\|scm\\|pm\\|py\\|g\\|s?html\\|ma?k\\)\\)\\|\\([Mm]akefile\\(\\.in\\)?\\)\\)$"
>>
>>
>> 
but trying to click on the "+" symbol in the speedbar frame next to an
>> org file gives only:
>> 
>> Sorry, no support for a file of that extension
>> 
>> Is it possible I need something else to make the extension work?
> 
> I tried with 'emacs -Q' and it "works for me". Make sure you do the above *before* firing up
> speedbar.
> 
>> A speedbar buffer in the same frame that shows only headings of the current file would be
>> fantastic...
> 
> Instead of bending Speedbar to your will, maybe it's just easier if you'd look at other
> solutions. As I've written, Speedbar simply resorts to 'imenu' to get the tags. Calling
> 'imenu-add-to-menubar' will let you generate a menu entry for the headings; that should also
> work with every org file. Maybe there's a little package out there putting the imenu headings
> in a buffer; it can't be very hard to do. Just take a look
> 
> http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ImenuMode
> 
> as a starting point.
> 
> -David
> 


- -- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys.
(Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:      Rainer@krugs.de

Skype:      RMkrug
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDAjxMACgkQoYgNqgF2egrj4wCcCaOivxyhPaiE7ZGrShE4XE9d
ixUAn2DxqX8giEfcSO8Y7rxuZEUT0GmC
=le+a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am attaching screen shot of LibreOffice UI.
>
> On the left is the navbar.
> - You can quickly navigate to any heading, a table or a captioned
>   figure.
>
> On the right is the style - one can choose char, paragraph, frame, list
> styles - at point.
> - In case of Org it will probably be element or point at point.
>
> In the center, toward lower right is the jump to next and prev element
> arrows.
>
> So the global view, doc view and local view seems to be pretty universal
> across all UIs.

that is a really nice setup, I'm going to steal it too (I usually have
the navbar and the style staked on top of ach other, but I like yours
better).  Style-at-point is useful for formatting but one thing I like
about both scrivener and org-mode is how little emphasis is placed on
interfaces for styles.  Instead you focus on content.  Libreoffice
doesn't have anything like the "synopsis" property that scrivener
associates with document nodes -- mostly I guess because the document
model is quite different.

m

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>
>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>>>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>
>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>
>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
>>> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>
> [...]
>
>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
>> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
>> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
>> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
>> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
>> metadata yet).
>
> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing
> properties around the current point -- it could include properties from
> the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure returned by
> `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
> current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the
> "inspect element" command in Firefox.
>
> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory
> (or even the org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>
> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>
those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working
for me at the moment though, there might be something wrong with my
.emacs setup...

Re: Org Writer's room

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On 12/06/12 20:09 PM, Matt Price wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>>>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>>>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>>>>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>
>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
>>>> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
>>> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
>>> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
>>> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
>>> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
>>> metadata yet).
>>
>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing
>> properties around the current point -- it could include properties from
>> the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure returned by
>> `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
>> current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the
>> "inspect element" command in Firefox.
>>
>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory
>> (or even the org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>
>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>
> those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working
> for me at the moment though, there might be something wrong with my
> .emacs setup...

Yeah, some of that's out of date. Actually, since Org looks like it will
be slowly migrating over to a basis on org elements, that's probably a
good direction to look. `org-element-parse-buffer' will return a data
structure for the current buffer that would be ideal for creating a tree
visualization.

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>
> On 12/06/12 20:09 PM, Matt Price wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards.
>>>>>>> Of course, they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to
>>>>>>> understand for people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your
>>>>>> description, but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you
>>>>> see as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure,
>>>> because it keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger
>>>> structure available if you feel the need to flit around a bit.  The
>>>> third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very primitive version of
>>>> what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do the
>>>> metadata yet).
>>>
>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing
>>> properties around the current point -- it could include properties from
>>> the PROPERTIES drawer, from the structure returned by
>>> `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of the
>>> current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the
>>> "inspect element" command in Firefox.
>>>
>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory
>>> (or even the org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>>
>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>>
>> those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working
>> for me at the moment though, there might be something wrong with my
>> .emacs setup...
>
> Yeah, some of that's out of date. Actually, since Org looks like it will
> be slowly migrating over to a basis on org elements, that's probably a
> good direction to look. `org-element-parse-buffer' will return a data
> structure for the current buffer that would be ideal for creating a tree
> visualization.

hmm, just looked at the output of that command and the data structures
look like:

(headline (:raw-value "The Function of Copyright" :begin 489 :end 610
:pre-blank 0 :hiddenp outline :contents-begin 517 ...) (section
(:begin 517 :end 610 :contents-begin 517 :contents-end 610 :post-blank
0 :parent #1)))

Those integers are char numbers in the buffer -- would this list then
have to be updated for every character stroke?  Hmm, I also can pretty
much see how to get each :raw-value and turn it into text that's
presented in a buffer... but I don't understand how to associate that
text with the existing headline in an org file.  Speedbar seems like a
much easier option, but while the org-mode parser is nowworking for
me(yay!) I can't make the same-frame package work (sr-speedbar)!  Gosh
darn it!

ANyway,  thanks eveyrone, I'm going to keep needing help on this so if
you have more suggestions please keep them coming..

matt

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/12/12 16:51, Matt Price wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On 12/06/12 20:09 PM, Matt Price wrote:
>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few screenshots
>>>>>>>> that give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course, they could be
>>>>>>>> completely fake, but it would be helpful to understand for people like me who
>>>>>>>> haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description, but I
>>>>>>> still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see as
>>>>>> making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>>> 
>>>> [...]
>>>> 
>>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it keeps
>>>>> you focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you feel the
>>>>> need to flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very
>>>>> primitive version of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do
>>>>> the metadata yet).
>>>> 
>>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties around
>>>> the current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer, from the
>>>> structure returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of
>>>> the current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the "inspect
>>>> element" command in Firefox.
>>>> 
>>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the
>>>> org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>>> 
>>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>>> 
>>> those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working for me at the moment
>>> though, there might be something wrong with my .emacs setup...
>> 
>> Yeah, some of that's out of date. Actually, since Org looks like it will be slowly migrating
>> over to a basis on org elements, that's probably a good direction to look.
>> `org-element-parse-buffer' will return a data structure for the current buffer that would be
>> ideal for creating a tree visualization.
> 
> hmm, just looked at the output of that command and the data structures look like:
> 
> (headline (:raw-value "The Function of Copyright" :begin 489 :end 610 :pre-blank 0 :hiddenp
> outline :contents-begin 517 ...) (section (:begin 517 :end 610 :contents-begin 517
> :contents-end 610 :post-blank 0 :parent #1)))
> 
> Those integers are char numbers in the buffer -- would this list then have to be updated for
> every character stroke?  Hmm, I also can pretty much see how to get each :raw-value and turn it
> into text that's presented in a buffer... but I don't understand how to associate that text
> with the existing headline in an org file.  Speedbar seems like a much easier option, but while
> the org-mode parser is nowworking for me(yay!) I can't make the same-frame package work
> (sr-speedbar)!  Gosh darn it!
> 
> ANyway,  thanks eveyrone, I'm going to keep needing help on this so if you have more
> suggestions please keep them coming..

Looking forward to the right side of the three...
As the left side is using existing packages, could you post the commands needed to make it work? I
only have it on the right side, and I assume you are using hooks to start sr-speedbar?

Rainer


> 
> matt
> 
> 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDBqzsACgkQoYgNqgF2egoxEwCeJAs9Ykuse8I146w+5M+yR4hJ
mC0AnAqwz6UAPy9BiP4psA8RJTGFM+hH
=Tfpu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Rainer M Krug <r.m.krug@gmail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 06/12/12 16:51, Matt Price wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/06/12 20:09 PM, Matt Price wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few screenshots
>>>>>>>>> that give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course, they could be
>>>>>>>>> completely fake, but it would be helpful to understand for people like me who
>>>>>>>>> haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description, but I
>>>>>>>> still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see as
>>>>>>> making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it keeps
>>>>>> you focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you feel the
>>>>>> need to flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still very
>>>>>> primitive version of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way to do
>>>>>> the metadata yet).
>>>>>
>>>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties around
>>>>> the current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer, from the
>>>>> structure returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe properties of
>>>>> the current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from the "inspect
>>>>> element" command in Firefox.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the
>>>>> org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>>>>
>>>> those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working for me at the moment
>>>> though, there might be something wrong with my .emacs setup...
>>>
>>> Yeah, some of that's out of date. Actually, since Org looks like it will be slowly migrating
>>> over to a basis on org elements, that's probably a good direction to look.
>>> `org-element-parse-buffer' will return a data structure for the current buffer that would be
>>> ideal for creating a tree visualization.
>>
>> hmm, just looked at the output of that command and the data structures look like:
>>
>> (headline (:raw-value "The Function of Copyright" :begin 489 :end 610 :pre-blank 0 :hiddenp
>> outline :contents-begin 517 ...) (section (:begin 517 :end 610 :contents-begin 517
>> :contents-end 610 :post-blank 0 :parent #1)))
>>
>> Those integers are char numbers in the buffer -- would this list then have to be updated for
>> every character stroke?  Hmm, I also can pretty much see how to get each :raw-value and turn it
>> into text that's presented in a buffer... but I don't understand how to associate that text
>> with the existing headline in an org file.  Speedbar seems like a much easier option, but while
>> the org-mode parser is nowworking for me(yay!) I can't make the same-frame package work
>> (sr-speedbar)!  Gosh darn it!
>>
>> ANyway,  thanks eveyrone, I'm going to keep needing help on this so if you have more
>> suggestions please keep them coming..
>
> Looking forward to the right side of the three...
> As the left side is using existing packages, could you post the commands needed to make it work? I
> only have it on the right side, and I assume you are using hooks to start sr-speedbar?
>

I don't have the speedbar interface running properly yet (no time the
last couple of days).  sr-speedbar is not working right for me, so I
am tryng some code from emacswiki (which is also posted in various
places around the web):

http://emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeedBar#toc1

I'm noticing a few issues:

- at least on my machine, it's not easy to click on a heading that has
subheadings.  THe trick is probably to make some improvements to the
underlying org/speedbar integration.
- when speedbar is running in the same frame as other windows, it
isn't so good at determining where it should open new buffers.
Binding the clicks to my writers-room-pop-buffer function should fix
that.
- the builtin speedbar browsers are awesome, but I think it would be
better to have a stripped-down interfacd that only showed the project
you're working on. I guess the way to do that would be to extend
speedbr with a new major or minor mode.  (
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/speedbar/Major-Display-Modes.html#Major-Display-Modes
).  It doesn't look that ocmplicated but I need to learn a bunch
before I do it...

All the code I have (not much)  is still available at the github repo
I posted at the beginning of this thread,
https://github.com/titaniumbones/org-writers-room/

I tried adding some speedbar stuff but it's very very rough!  If you
feel like improving it -- that would be just super...  In any case go
ahead and try it ou.  It doesn't do much and I'm pretty sure it an't
do any harm to your files, but I would love some feedback.  Thanks,
Matt

Re: Org Writer's room

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/12/12 13:57, Matt Price wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Rainer M Krug <r.m.krug@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> On 06/12/12 16:51, Matt Price wrote:
>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/06/12 20:09 PM, Matt Price wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 06/12/12 11:22, Rasmus wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Hyatt <ahyatt@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> This sounds like an interesting project.  My advice is to make a few
>>>>>>>>>> screenshots that give people an idea what you are working towards. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>> they could be completely fake, but it would be helpful to understand for
>>>>>>>>>> people like me who haven't used Scrivener.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I would also like to see this.  It sounds nice when I read your description,
>>>>>>>>> but I still don't fully appreciate the idea.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> –Rasmus
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm also very interested. I haven't used Scrivener -- what features do you see
>>>>>>>> as making org a *way* better writing environment?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To start with I would like to just replicate this window structure, because it
>>>>>>> keeps you focused on writing, while having the larger structure available if you
>>>>>>> feel the need to flit around a bit.  The third screenshot shows a semi-fake, still
>>>>>>> very primitive version of what I'd like to have.  (I haven't figured out a good way
>>>>>>> to do the metadata yet).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I *really* like the idea of having a right-hand pane available showing properties
>>>>>> around the current point -- it could include properties from the PROPERTIES drawer,
>>>>>> from the structure returned by `org-element-property', text properties, and maybe
>>>>>> properties of the current headline parent. I'm sort of envisioning what you get from
>>>>>> the "inspect element" command in Firefox.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For the left-hand pane, org-toc and org-panel in the contrib directory (or even the 
>>>>>> org-goto interface) might provide some inspiration.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> those are 3 powerful tools I hadn't used before.  org-toc not working for me at the
>>>>> moment though, there might be something wrong with my .emacs setup...
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, some of that's out of date. Actually, since Org looks like it will be slowly
>>>> migrating over to a basis on org elements, that's probably a good direction to look. 
>>>> `org-element-parse-buffer' will return a data structure for the current buffer that would
>>>> be ideal for creating a tree visualization.
>>> 
>>> hmm, just looked at the output of that command and the data structures look like:
>>> 
>>> (headline (:raw-value "The Function of Copyright" :begin 489 :end 610 :pre-blank 0
>>> :hiddenp outline :contents-begin 517 ...) (section (:begin 517 :end 610 :contents-begin
>>> 517 :contents-end 610 :post-blank 0 :parent #1)))
>>> 
>>> Those integers are char numbers in the buffer -- would this list then have to be updated
>>> for every character stroke?  Hmm, I also can pretty much see how to get each :raw-value and
>>> turn it into text that's presented in a buffer... but I don't understand how to associate
>>> that text with the existing headline in an org file.  Speedbar seems like a much easier
>>> option, but while the org-mode parser is nowworking for me(yay!) I can't make the
>>> same-frame package work (sr-speedbar)!  Gosh darn it!
>>> 
>>> ANyway,  thanks eveyrone, I'm going to keep needing help on this so if you have more 
>>> suggestions please keep them coming..
>> 
>> Looking forward to the right side of the three... As the left side is using existing
>> packages, could you post the commands needed to make it work? I only have it on the right
>> side, and I assume you are using hooks to start sr-speedbar?
>> 
> 
> I don't have the speedbar interface running properly yet (no time the last couple of days).
> sr-speedbar is not working right for me, so I am tryng some code from emacswiki (which is also
> posted in various places around the web):
> 
> http://emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeedBar#toc1

OK - waiting for news on this front. For the time, I will be using the sr-speedbar.

> 
> I'm noticing a few issues:
> 
> - at least on my machine, it's not easy to click on a heading that has subheadings.  THe trick
> is probably to make some improvements to the underlying org/speedbar integration.

True - works only for the "last" headers.

> - when speedbar is running in the same frame as other windows, it isn't so good at determining
> where it should open new buffers. Binding the clicks to my writers-room-pop-buffer function
> should fix that. - the builtin speedbar browsers are awesome, but I think it would be better to
> have a stripped-down interfacd that only showed the project you're working on. I guess the way
> to do that would be to extend speedbr with a new major or minor mode.  ( 
> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/speedbar/Major-Display-Modes.html#Major-Display-Modes
>
> 
).  It doesn't look that ocmplicated but I need to learn a bunch
> before I do it...

Agreed - would be very useful.

> 
> All the code I have (not much)  is still available at the github repo I posted at the beginning
> of this thread, https://github.com/titaniumbones/org-writers-room/
> 
> I tried adding some speedbar stuff but it's very very rough!  If you feel like improving it --
> that would be just super...  In any case go ahead and try it ou.  It doesn't do much and I'm
> pretty sure it an't do any harm to your files, but I would love some feedback.  Thanks,

I unfortunately know nothing about elisp so I won't be of any help here, except testing.
If you announce some testable versions, I would be happy using them and give feedback.

Cheers,

Rainer


> Matt
> 


- -- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys.
(Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:      Rainer@krugs.de

Skype:      RMkrug
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iEYEARECAAYFAlDB6xYACgkQoYgNqgF2egq1rgCcDy5AEcG0DcD+CaysrfgzZfGI
ql4AnAuw4+xNmKLus81jQTJVKmuaL7Pz
=4IEa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Org Writer's room

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

Hello Matt,

IIUC Scrivener, the one difficult part is implementing a window manger, If so
you can use window layout package(s) by Kiwanami[1][2].

Footnotes: 
[1]  https://github.com/kiwanami/emacs-window-layout
[2]  https://github.com/kiwanami/emacs-window-manager

-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు
YYR

Re: Org Writer's room

[Matt Price]

that looks really great, I'm going to play with it as soon as I can -
-thanks! Hve you set up your own window layouts using htis package?
matt

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Matt,
>
> IIUC Scrivener, the one difficult part is implementing a window manger, If so
> you can use window layout package(s) by Kiwanami[1][2].
>
> Footnotes:
> [1]  https://github.com/kiwanami/emacs-window-layout
> [2]  https://github.com/kiwanami/emacs-window-manager
>
> --
> ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు
> YYR
>
>

Re: Org Writer's room

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

Hello Matt,

On Dec 06 2012, Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com> wrote:

> that looks really great, I'm going to play with it as soon as I can -
> -thanks! Hve you set up your own window layouts using htis package?

No, But I used a package written by tkf called ne2wm[1] for some time which
has very good prospectives (jargon from eclipse). For eg, `ne2wm:dp-code+' is
almost similar to the one discussed in this thread (Imenu window, code window,
dired).

It comes with a nice function set to create a desired prospective with in no
time. I stopped using it because of my screen resolution.

Thanks.,

Footnotes: 
[1]  https://github.com/tkf/ne2wm

-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు
YYR