From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id UO+rBZrWKV+BTAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 21:43:54 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id WCaKAZrWKV++XQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 21:43:54 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4E09401CB for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:43:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56182 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k34ir-0007Jf-Tm for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:43:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41688) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k34iK-0007JX-S4 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:43:16 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:35779) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k34iH-0005TW-SN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:43:16 -0400 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75359E9 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:43:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type; s=fm3; bh=/Ny9j5GFJlDq23MBvzSEYTtrlx9 fwwxqoy/foxD/1hI=; b=kWUKhIiHYgT1wvEB1Q8Nd8H19oYtS/BwoOTgtTmxnAM 2EU4vkcapp+gXdmZRbnHzlcDdz0IWSOp1CGg6+3Hs/C18yITOt73sdFbyfkSX7hi FB1YoGQcrZjWAH0TuSyt89jOK/3W6vcCSYekhNjA9JT/pdPAxB9PCj9IM+TAjP4e qYQbnOfl7nCPVIpDC9CFvd+pcfSwzlmfo/CZECohqyolj/wsrsXLUIxoQUsA8oe9 sp4olWbS9750jv2lUA10M2Vy3tfLq0CXMqMPx/S4JdE6vxxMYuLZcBlftJMRM0oq vzXMMqobFV6n19ciEPPzs3IXLWCpV2UGHiX5ISFr1BQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/Ny9j5 GFJlDq23MBvzSEYTtrlx9fwwxqoy/foxD/1hI=; b=J9Fx7IkCmDrclrmNI9Jqck P5JtDyyZlP6KuBZI7MkXyDajoUEKnrEcEHL0LLI76n8TwEUNAB9PE2p6ojCSGSCh a5Wv1EGV/aGIw782j9aNehImuMI1Xu5JV3D1DWYv4va3XKvdJetfZ7eFU+sGqRyN NrO7YcZfHME/MnxmU+CCMCaShv0DAU+u68x1je1BIZA3renkw/pMKAzWz48Vc5rq FT/shxje5z787mJSeSZyYyzp/kRMeCzyAYxdwp6YhjKGtdyiNObfOzbPz/WejQD2 pRnJbRFbjc1+B84HEM+o/j7dNRGq8KM8tSgAp4JK0OT7OKQvPS+b/MXI8mCHdK5Q == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrjeejgddtudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderre dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeeuohcuifhrihhmvghsuceovhgtghefrhgusehfrghsthhmrghi lhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffeiueffteeljeelffegffeluefgffdtud fgteekhedvhfetjefftddvieefgefhnecuffhomhgrihhnpeguvghmohdrohhrghdpghhi thhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppedutdekrdehuddrudeghedruddtkeenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehvtghgfehrugesfhgrshht mhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.80] (pool-108-51-145-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.145.108]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 48DCE328005A for ; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Website revamp? To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87zh95g2ns.fsf@gmail.com> <87mu3hduk1.fsf@gmail.com> <87wo2lyvid.fsf@gnu.org> <87k0yldpuj.fsf@gmail.com> <20200730172204.GB17223@volibear> <87ime4ev3s.fsf@gmail.com> <20200730190331.GD17223@volibear> <878seyhj38.fsf@gmail.com> <87bljs6hph.fsf@gmail.com> <87r1so2u2b.fsf@yandex.com> <875za05l7v.fsf@gmail.com> From: Bo Grimes Message-ID: <4c06138c-d2d3-fb91-406e-7841dee016c0@fastmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:43:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6FFE9C5FE67F9B60073BDE8E" Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.24; envelope-from=vcg3rd@fastmail.com; helo=wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/04 16:45:07 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm3 header.b=kWUKhIiH; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=J9Fx7IkC; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fastmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.29 X-TUID: br8b+jv5Wrpt This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6FFE9C5FE67F9B60073BDE8E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/4/20 11:48 AM, Maxim Nikulin wrote: > As to installation, I believe that org-mode bundled with Emacs is more > than enough for first try. It is a shorter path to become familiar > with most prominent features just to start editing of an .org file (or > to download a prepared demo .org). Getting the latest stable version > could be a next step for the hooked users. I might disagree, slightly, mostly with the last sentence.  This is one of the very few issues I feel semi-competent to comment on.  It would be impolite to actually say what I thought the only meaning of 'lisp' was before Emacs, which I had tasted and spit-out a dozen times before really reading in depth about org-mode.  I have expanded my Emacs horizons to include org-journal, emacs-w3m, org-roam, ERC,  and writeroom  modes, but I don't code. This is relevant because I had always been satisfied with the built-in org-mode.  A couple of weeks ago, when I decided to give org-roam a try, my best guess is org-roam pulled in 9.3.6.  That is my best guess because suddenly it was there, and that is the only recent package I had installed. That may not be the case, but regardless, I learned I had 9.3.6, which I never explicitly installed, when I ran into some errors.  I can no longer competently describe exactly what I was doing, but I am pretty sure it related to calling org-journal.  I know whatever I was doing caused an error message: "Invalid function: org-preserve-local-variables." I spent some quite frustrating hours searching, and this error was frequently mentioned with org-refile, and I think helm and babel.  I was on the verge of mailing the list, but I wanted to say I had tried the best advice I found [1], and I did so by backing up my entire emacs.d and then deleting all .elc files. This worked. I've no understanding of the underlying technicalities, and I'm pretty sure I had never heard of byte-compiled files (except in the most general sense unrelated to Emacs).  It was literally like magic ( maybe magit :-) ) to me when Emacs repopulated all my .elc files! I would, therefore, encourage any new users coming to org-mode and/or Emacs to start with the highest, most stable version of both that is available to them with their level of competence (for me that is always what is in my distro's package manager) and with the further explaination that they might run into issues down the road if they don't. It is true that "[g]etting the latest stable version could be a next step for the hooked users", but I have used org-mode for five years without doing so, and many people may be so excited (like I was) that they finally found the One True Note-taking Tool (tm) that they immediately start blindly build an entire system only to crash into a byte-compiled wall. Their very first TODO should be "upgrade org-mode soon," [2] like "Call Mom" is in the todo.txt examples. [1] https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/issues/11801 (I won't engage in the pretense of beginning my footnotes with 0 :-) ) [2] The idea that someone would use org-mode and not get "hooked" is paradoxically unimaginable. -- Bo Grimes --------------6FFE9C5FE67F9B60073BDE8E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 8/4/20 11:48 AM, Maxim Nikulin wrote:
As to installation, I believe that org-mode bundled with Emacs is more than enough for first try. It is a shorter path to become familiar with most prominent features just to start editing of an .org file (or to download a prepared demo .org). Getting the latest stable version could be a next step for the hooked users.

I might disagree, slightly, mostly with the last sentence.  This is one of the very few issues I feel semi-competent to comment on.  It would be impolite to actually say what I thought the only meaning of 'lisp' was before Emacs, which I had tasted and spit-out a dozen times before really reading in depth about org-mode.  I have expanded my Emacs horizons to include org-journal, emacs-w3m, org-roam, ERC,  and writeroom  modes, but I don't code.

This is relevant because I had always been satisfied with the built-in org-mode.  A couple of weeks ago, when I decided to give org-roam a try, my best guess is org-roam pulled in 9.3.6.  That is my best guess because suddenly it was there, and that is the only recent package I had installed. 

That may not be the case, but regardless, I learned I had 9.3.6, which I never explicitly installed, when I ran into some errors.  I can no longer competently describe exactly what I was doing, but I am pretty sure it related to calling org-journal.  I know whatever I was doing caused an error message: "Invalid function: org-preserve-local-variables."

I spent some quite frustrating hours searching, and this error was frequently mentioned with org-refile, and I think helm and babel.  I was on the verge of mailing the list, but I wanted to say I had tried the best advice I found [1], and I did so by backing up my entire emacs.d and then deleting all .elc files. This worked. I've no understanding of the underlying technicalities, and I'm pretty sure I had never heard of byte-compiled files (except in the most general sense unrelated to Emacs).  It was literally like magic ( maybe magit :-) ) to me when Emacs repopulated all my .elc files!

I would, therefore, encourage any new users coming to org-mode and/or Emacs to start with the highest, most stable version of both that is available to them with their level of competence (for me that is always what is in my distro's package manager) and with the further explaination that they might run into issues down the road if they don't. 

It is true that "[g]etting the latest stable version could be a next step for the hooked users", but I have used org-mode for five years without doing so, and many people may be so excited (like I was) that they finally found the One True Note-taking Tool (tm) that they immediately start blindly build an entire system only to crash into a byte-compiled wall. Their very first TODO should be "upgrade org-mode soon," [2] like "Call Mom" is in the todo.txt examples.

[1] https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/issues/11801 (I won't engage in the pretense of beginning my footnotes with 0 :-) )

[2] The idea that someone would use org-mode and not get "hooked" is paradoxically unimaginable.

--
Bo Grimes
--------------6FFE9C5FE67F9B60073BDE8E--