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Wed, 27 Mar 2024 03:20:32 +0000 Received: from [10.28.0.206] (unknown [45.131.192.18]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: adam@alphapapa.net) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a230.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4V4Bkl537Gz3V; Tue, 26 Mar 2024 20:20:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alphapapa.net; s=dreamhost; t=1711509631; bh=jIWGyR2qYItKjUHaTazrqBxupIYhMJkN7tuzo/iHZIw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tSmYFgj2pM0FAfscFWuhKEFO6Jicl3RFeYFqXO3i5IF9uixh1QngY2UR2Yfl7WBAz 4DvADHiQ35KylBd2raNWID/5bJ46k6ZnVNq51RVicULYpDPz7XMibedu5ikhh73tOb 47blmkbny3OsM7M/cInVoutZV+E4RxuSoZabA0SmQWKT6eO2Nx2qF77MfODlB/ENl8 lpxHRxItQj6yQSaPIQk9fm8AHwhnDkLDZK9m+xwgUrf01YgQSBL4WDeP4ReRydgPml P+9CFLAO+2W4u3m9A8tIPB/SPcqwjrnAhaGLasPXiChj7Mk1AemMIbvbrENLVaK7Cd 8OdH5lBsSKqlA== Message-ID: <38e2ca8a-175b-4f74-aae5-39f6d605a6b8@alphapapa.net> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2024 22:20:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [Worg] CSS improvements To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <57934e1d-37eb-4b75-b8ed-6666dcc3848e@alphapapa.net> <87le6957ha.fsf@localhost> <14b3b7df-baeb-45b5-a530-aa11ccf09d0c@alphapapa.net> <87plvkf1p0.fsf@localhost> <00a7258c-d3ef-4a22-ae08-35c62d71cc27@alphapapa.net> <87le659hgv.fsf@localhost> Content-Language: en-US From: Adam Porter In-Reply-To: <87le659hgv.fsf@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: neutral client-ip=23.83.218.254; envelope-from=adam@alphapapa.net; helo=toucan.tulip.relay.mailchannels.net X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Spam-Score: -10.34 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 946FB10B50 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.34 X-TUID: ZGEKDJv0XPwc On 3/26/24 09:48, Ihor Radchenko wrote: > Adam Porter writes: > >>>> What is the purpose of centering text if not to make it stand out? >>> >>> To align text. I am not sure why anything more is necessary - it >>> is certainly counter-intuitive for me that "center" means something more >>> than just alignment. >> >> Again, what is the purpose of centering text? The answer, "To align >> text," is tautological. > > I am very confused. Of course, it is tautological. "center" container is > aiming to align the text. That's why it is named "center". Yes, but why do we center text? That's what I'm asking. >> Especially, on Worg, where the whole site serves as a kind of extended >> user manual, the purpose of centering text is, what, if not to make it >> stand out? > > To align text... I really do not understand why one would _anticipate_ > that #+begin_center is doing anything other than center alignment. Of course, I'm not suggesting that this be the default for Org's HTML export CSS. I'm suggesting that, on Worg, since the .org-center class hasn't even been styled, we might as well use it for this purpose--to make text stand out--since that's generally the purpose of centering text anyway. >>> If you need extra highlighting, we may introduce a dedicated style and >>> apply it via special block. >> >> Why, when we already have #+begin_center? Currently it's not even used >> at all. This would not change anything that already exists; it would >> make something that already exists useful. > > It would break expectations. > It will also differ from ox-html output with the default css style > `org-html-style-default': Worg already differs significantly from the ox-html default styles, so why not in this way also? >>> Mostly because it is unexpected, as I described above. >>> I'd prefer to stick closer to the semantics and just apply alignment to >>> center blocks. >> >> *shrug* Worg has existed for years without even doing anything with >> #+begin_center blocks--not even centering them. I propose that we make >> it useful and serve its natural purpose, rather than adding a special >> new block that most users won't even know about (having to find it in >> the voluminous Worg content isn't likely to happen for most users). > > I do not see how, without documentation, one would expect that > #+begin_center can be used for highlighting and not for text alignment. > From my point of view, it is worse than a special block - not only this > ad-hoc convention is not documented; it will also break expectations > about what #+begin_center does. Again, this is just for Worg, and centering hasn't even had any effect for years. There seem to be no expectations to break. > What about: > > 1. Introducing a new special block for highlighting > 2. Documenting it in https://orgmode.org/worg/worg-editing.html I think that such a new special block would likely go unused in favor of default blocks. The cognitive load of learning how to contribute to Worg is already pretty high. We see this same pattern in contributions to Emacs and Org themselves: code is often unidiomatic because it takes a long time to learn all the idioms, and it's often not obvious what the idiomatic way to do something is. The same is true for contributions to documentation. Worg is no different. So I would still suggest that, on Worg, we use my suggested styling on #+begin_center blocks. This would make them useful and fulfill their natural purpose. I understand your general objection--and I wouldn't suggest it for Org's default export CSS--but I think that, for Worg specifically, it needn't apply. Since Worg is updated with relatively low frequency, anyway, perhaps this suggestion could be tried as an experiment. If problems are found with it, then the extra styling, beyond merely centering the text, could be reverted. Nothing is permanent here; we've probably spilled more virtual ink on this topic than would be affected by the change. Anyway, if this idea is vetoed, it would still be good to have some way to make text stand out in a standard way, similar to various HTML documentation styles in other projects (to avoid resorting to inline HTML). It seems like a missing feature on Worg. And the other changes in the patch would be good to have, regardless. Thanks, Adam