From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8OpIHdR/qGExnwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 09:12:04 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id AOEAGdR/qGFpbQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 08:12:04 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0B7A36EE5 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 09:12:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:51732 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mshCE-00013O-Tx for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 03:12:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msh7p-00072G-M8 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 03:07:29 -0500 Received: from relay-egress-host.us-east-2.a.mail.umich.edu ([18.217.159.240]:42842 helo=silver-llyr.relay-egress.a.mail.umich.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msh7m-00048N-Tm for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 03:07:29 -0500 Received: from sage-fomorian.authn-relay.a.mail.umich.edu (ip-10-0-72-215.us-east-2.compute.internal [10.0.72.215]) by silver-llyr.relay-egress.a.mail.umich.edu with ESMTPS id 61A87EB9.127A8.5745E28F.2399019; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 03:07:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umich.edu; s=relay-2018-08-29; t=1638432440; bh=z3Y7Cn07DDjWl6bwhUBtuIV03dc0S0KWwPa/XgX66Ws=; h=To:cc:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:Date; b=REysDSoihb7WCnMlpeEHjLw+LZSqIagg6WitQle/MnRP6jytDhikc0FN/CcajCizO r4B9utxpNwH2VjY9dSg4RtWDvLqf+avFvAZxh/QTg3QWK7rb99GV3PHINAfJkZAxEH 9nWmuNQ4GJRbb7ApSQPBrYMBr9u4a9btjZcqwhC+X8KMj/GXIrcv2+JqHHHMl1hbvk 3I8Yf+JPvQ4V+7tsKX4ca7qY2q/OiSj8j1CiAWxy/Vez8vBZCRrlXgio+PKbCXUs9L yK+zIn8Mc9L3fkA89KrxwP2XpQPqmsOPysmkOEUcCBvVtSpm0NKZA53YIFwR+pUbVB OMAgXJtt2dlEw== Received: from localhost (Mismatch [88.236.232.196]) by sage-fomorian.authn-relay.a.mail.umich.edu with ESMTPSA id 61A87EB7.37433.3D174493.80219; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 03:07:19 -0500 To: Karl Voit From: Greg Minshall Subject: Re: Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis In-reply-to: <2021-12-02T00-41-46@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <2021-12-02T00-41-46@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> Comments: In-reply-to Karl Voit message dated "Thu, 02 Dec 2021 00:43:30 +0100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 27.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3739135.1638432434.1@apollo2.minshall.org> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:07:14 +0300 Message-ID: <3739136.1638432434@apollo2.minshall.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=18.217.159.240; envelope-from=minshall@umich.edu; helo=silver-llyr.relay-egress.a.mail.umich.edu X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638432724; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=z3Y7Cn07DDjWl6bwhUBtuIV03dc0S0KWwPa/XgX66Ws=; b=roFiHalLnVT0ujtYdE/JXTxPyRN0LUGZlpTSwORnD16Coy3iYhhswPLbenroV5qdLgihmc B1RcTqPgQwcbe6nf24uZ62g4n8YT9fgSBKPytSp99yhdlkzQlkPY7hPaPheJ78XlHKeyl7 P0cTZjT/uR1J3xeeYJ+WJuooCeMWJ3kRquWErMo1rj0fiGMBQCdTzQQspSINlCoZLYCdBD GAJo60oj/BGYDR1zbPjUsQugWc05GJ5/IgAJHAlEvtHpQ/YLr7RcUV57XPpmiauuE4Cy6e x04vdHRQi9TWJLhzTMHxiy4Hx2syDWNwbkG9oXAfjtw4haPiKOUYlZJt9Rx5oQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638432724; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=C6T0sGuYzNRYUKPKUYE0sP52Vc6jFYfVyCbcMqDNrVzC/9cAaK4R22xUJHxcDg2AF+nLlp Ua6FMyn3Qlwo0GLvh0vcAs1XblaYVtx5ipLjhBQtaEphSgiK70s3kPkA7kIme4x73MAFLF xt69qHo2L8UoCaQSryhPJA3Wyt/uklQOca3V33vLXLGV1PFs++EdZDc0kewkLCaV0e4Z6l 1mIBHPnE3hxG5EA4PV462LMFrN7y1xcjawrRajPPq5uoiEHmbwgTa8nvVR9A6hHol5Ejso jWN2sDES/K4guZvkUCh0QjojLb2FuAror15NocsK9lsvxFd2wXFeUOxZ7A7Lhg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=umich.edu header.s=relay-2018-08-29 header.b=REysDSoi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=umich.edu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.62 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=umich.edu header.s=relay-2018-08-29 header.b=REysDSoi; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=umich.edu; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D0B7A36EE5 X-Spam-Score: -4.62 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: VYboD9+HUgb2 Karl, thanks for all of this, and for writing and posting your blog entry (words of caution for many). my thoughts on your project are something like this: - i think non-emacs tools to deal with org mode files is a Good Thing. - for me, the main motivation is to allow *me* to share an org mode file with someone -- say via a git repo -- and have them be able to do something reasonable, if restricted, with it -- extract the code, query subtrees or tables, etc. -- without recourse to emacs. - i think collaborative editing with non-emacs users should be not be a goal of *this* endeavor. - for me, your main invention, and the place (non pro-versus-con) discussion should focus, is on your levels: what's at level 1, at what level is org-mode itself, etc. there are some tricky things here (e.g., for tables, what to do with hlines, with column width specifications, at the various "conformance levels"?) - and, sigh, i prefer some other name; like "org mode syntax (level 0)". maybe it will acronymize into omsl0 (gasp!). who knows. i do think "orgdown" was a clever choice, but i'm not a fan. cheers, Greg