From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id mGOnJaLvNmN1jAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:14 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id qNXZJaLvNmNRcQAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:14 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F2A147D6B for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43718 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oeG6i-0003rm-ID for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 09:31:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oeG57-0003pm-99 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 09:29:33 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]:41570) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oeG53-000570-DK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 09:29:32 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id q9so4178230pgq.8 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 06:29:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=D/YOvsUUvmX0xmMDlPz6J1hLlMzkavyCT57338nOAPU=; b=YFLZPdDraaMl+4+Du7SWva/hSuXwoiovzRSqw+xMqEx94e5Dkc6Ow0XJH7KGr8qWsd ltW48G5O5/BJ4KlpLhUewuK6e22gLGYIv8SQS6/3afiFc0KeiAMm42renbiBGRQpPypC oztLF9vK9qRORbnt3RJJMS3gfCvWkQKKe5QVJkykBQxO79veBGJTHMlA7EfMUYinlc+a VsEpKTctxJureA7E7Tqm0OPv0gqy4L2Co/ZRPgZARMgGL2TKcBu0/hCYz5Vc/3D1m87x IGkMxgRgl0hEHBr6ykGcYeN3JSOK/w1dYwFi4l5U8OLpG2WT9Q7ate5WnUWHm6sXNMV/ bjZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date; bh=D/YOvsUUvmX0xmMDlPz6J1hLlMzkavyCT57338nOAPU=; b=1tegrcte76E9ZA6KCFdgeeAaSq+bfddmcCH74T6dYaGtpEcKawdsuDlqu1bdcFWI6R o9Li+E+Ppfv/fAVBUitPxhrJJ3kAlN1V1DdyATn8aK1Cbp8KwVLn0D4BMAdmlnpbGtvv 4JSf/ZLl89eJOIILZXHaQ0LDGlBrxqMY5oZZd+C1USrQmHhKLwx1tOztQsB6Fdtic/c/ POvcDE3MqMp1JZmFORGRVsER6Funs2n49t8aWmpAVbMXlh+JmIbx4BaA9sIi8hcWszsv I2tYK75ce4xjDIwF1zMvOQOQ0Z+ZlPsKvP0dozJygOs2qJXxeOl8o/SnTl9+YATpZToN uvsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1bBTUSPVP2v28jkHV2Nc560Psucifv2rFDn96X0NbV8mt/P3Em dEjm69+CFAJbJgCOHhofkF1vUWHim93Qhw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6dTuJHTccm4hY7xFNZ9BPSnP78aCyIiQ9ldo94CtUC/mDfovJPcuOW/LNsewcHHxl8BfCxzg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:f014:0:b0:43c:2ad9:ae9 with SMTP id k20-20020a63f014000000b0043c2ad90ae9mr7737925pgh.8.1664544560489; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 06:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from retriever.mtv.corp.google.com ([2620:0:1000:1612:9aa5:8b63:9b44:1625]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u10-20020a170902714a00b001755f43bc22sm1868602plm.175.2022.09.30.06.29.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 30 Sep 2022 06:29:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "T.V Raman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <25398.61226.614726.254480@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 06:29:14 -0700 To: manikulin@gmail.com Cc: raman@google.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Org mode export accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net> <875ykwvmz7.fsf@posteo.net> <871qvioquw.fsf@gmail.com> <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> <87v8sn3obd.fsf@gmail.com> <87czevr9cn.fsf@posteo.net> <878rpj3dbq.fsf@localhost> <25273.49476.833965.837697@google.com> <87czeq7fjo.fsf@localhost> <25286.61631.305598.944699@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::530; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pg1-x530.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -181 X-Spam_score: -18.2 X-Spam_bar: ------------------ X-Spam_report: (-18.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.583, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664544674; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=D/YOvsUUvmX0xmMDlPz6J1hLlMzkavyCT57338nOAPU=; b=hzCnzc78Fq+jUqCSDQc/fJ1bxUBFCJ505WJe9ZIEvVm3ME6XNNx0C/FZUkezl7ArAPmBea L1P8pzz1bL2nKuNyzBdfeKi0I/y4tcXJzuyfVS/SpabAtAc/u/icoDC8qw9Ot49xed7inu QYWidH3xioE2oNHl6OT8E2jZnEOa64GH5l8SkrqcaXdJnkt4g3R2H57LGnflckglEKb5QG C6TfJYQ8IENug5fYAuBL3WZEAPINiyj0WnlNlWIAg/XxE94X1CVR/5VQcB/gt2eQD9h0wf qPZl9v7A0lI1CDp4E9hjkx+ynJhl1Aof0gnHQ4c/2Q/Y1bqQ2DAu4LaK8j79cg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664544674; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=mNJzAbk6r1bESXw6MDhaaBpnkJetbgGyQ3arG5U6olkcw+EChCT6DemCQKRLxN3fHiM9N2 vzxuUl8OnckQnP1MIBmKHJYMfszsIrUIcyE0Te/j5zGVZ146up6yhc2woVSwM9c4FgBM5q NOOzeQEdRVSvvzVQWRjGAS+BmMxpXiHUoWgbQJ0ifc9RfLJF2eGu8bDcakUKPZFQbJHqg/ GS/jptoK5In5fs+Mw6DDA987joCFL+j3TNJlEwULU7CY554hPqOS6x8MbUArq0Ya8lvAVF o2lP3g8CXcVUP3D3nvyLmHSteq0SGnDu86A6zGaQW5bwm77Vr9Achoonq8BioQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=YFLZPdDr; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.09 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=YFLZPdDr; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1F2A147D6B X-Spam-Score: -7.09 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: nUhmCj/b8E1u As one example, yes. Here is hopefully a more detailed explanation: 1. First off, here Accessibility =3D=3D Specifically, Accessibility to = the blind. 2. For blind and low vision users, you may need to "re-render" the math, either via magnification, speech or Braille. 3. For doing this, you need the original "generating markup" MathML, or better yet LaTeX (those distinctions require more explanation, but this should suffice for this thread) 4. When things are rendered to PDF, a derivative format that traces back to the print world and traditionally didn't feel the need to recreate the original, all that info from (3) is lost. 5. For regular document structure, e.g. headings etc, PDF now supports this "natively" via something called "marked content" introduced in the late 90's; to leverage this, publishing tools exporting to PDF can leverage that facility to enable downstream tools re-create or extract an approximation of the original structure.=20 6. The above left out Math --- mostly because authoring tools did not go as far as doing that for Math. 7. Then you got pdftex that replaced DVI (which was essentially pure visual layout) with PDF -- also pure visual layout -- but a format that has continued to evolve. 8. Now, connect the dots, newer LaTeX packages like the one mentioned (there may well be others now or in the future) can inprinciple ensure that the required "back pointers to regenerate the original markup" can make it all the way through to the generated PDF. 9. Note that this is not the end of the trail; for such exports to make a difference to the end-user, user-facing tools still need to know "how" to leverage these facilities. Max Nikulin writes: > Accessibility issues of exported files have been raised on the Org m= ode=20 > mail list again. I decided to revive this thread because I noticed a= =20 > LaTeX package that may be related to the following suggestion (I am = not=20 > sure that I got it right though). >=20 > On 07/07/2022 21:42, T.V Raman wrote: > >=20 > > 3. For math especially, make sure the TeX/LaTeX is preserved one > > way or the other in the export >=20 > Math can be extracted from PDF files as TeX commands using e.g.=20 > pdftotext if LaTeX source file contains \usepackage{mmap}. Is it wha= t=20 > you were writing about=3F >=20 > https://ctan.org/pkg/mmap > https://mirrors.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/mmap/README >=20 > The latest thread with discussion of accessibility: >=20 > https://list.orgmode.org/th4dth$5df$1@ciao.gmane.io > Max Nikulin Re: Add \usepackage{cmap} as default LaTeX class in ox-l= atex=20 > (was: org exported pdf files) Thu, 29 Sep 2022 22:34:07 +0700. --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=89 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE -- Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) ♉ Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮