From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8ARjEQHxxmLGQAEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 16:43:13 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id eMVbEQHxxmKjfAEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 16:43:13 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADC422B0F5 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2022 16:43:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52254 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9Sil-0006DK-SS for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:43:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45112) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9Shr-0005yF-KM for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:42:15 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]:46047) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o9Sho-0006j0-Qe for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:42:15 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 145so18885420pga.12 for ; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=d2KhYA9qeZMwQXyKikB72DGRNcvuIE1rsrrdeykij9w=; b=VPLNlvN3X6fyD1+xoAdCUTmt3DqiG2h6P8Hwosvj2ka1ipty0xy7j44LD55Xz1Kkls ncwZz/gIwUOyml9jkS4rQKalcyyo+ZzimOU0uheMMyoabsl8gdFBqDd9xdX/Y8KaezkL lbc2IZmFqw+rN5/UtmHs12Tnr5ubl1EDVrxvFQ6zBXGVwoX7aZCadoZCUoTnPmzGG9Mc 8WKIgv+QzaMJqdGMvudigixdlG4tNPniKi+aDMKIbVngVvDv0cH5JHItqfnOWd4n0pF9 bQR2Ukxk2ZUCmgOUcGDxB+TSDmcQevbc/wNz0P09k9rCLd70Jzi2Ox2HvgiMbYQpePBp Lvjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:date:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=d2KhYA9qeZMwQXyKikB72DGRNcvuIE1rsrrdeykij9w=; b=UIRLkVEdLStfyj61JmTbDpwCVmqYG+R2lmB7fqYrneoao66nIjTlKxZUciZvromFoJ cE/gdG6KZXLtK2sD2IvYKagK6cjtJB+94TVaPnjYsuLTmUpwss9KZ5rZ8gBgJ+V/G+I0 SKCYrktwTS3nj5C/D2yg3WnFsMLIc/st2VgogP0SRu47P9sPhszIr4nhRBJw0KHrxncA lGXQECWnIGipP6Cz1Ezo6mNoprRThuck+Pa1tTfz/s71+IqeiXQQdSaf0CjE4tM0sx0u etDTxsM2ldto6q366tCXv+BaY8CkVNBxk2LVG+CGhlV5HwtSjE+QXYJmqsFJ0BxejJdd qxVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9RDggvVusYXoMyfew934ghIrOiJmlXxeDqvFSA68JsoI8VmITE 4fzeBxXurJs5KqSN+C+8ADZ4VxSJzYpsBg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1v3chKSAQkoD3pSaHWi/xTSYK+onXdiiPGevlFHE0i9mO+KstLlhy6Mm95DA85p8RWflKydjw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:b49:b0:525:9ffb:a26f with SMTP id p9-20020a056a000b4900b005259ffba26fmr54041800pfo.33.1657204929574; Thu, 07 Jul 2022 07:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from retriever.mtv.corp.google.com ([2620:0:1000:1510:9e39:ed63:8015:eccc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 132-20020a62198a000000b005256c9c3957sm26989711pfz.108.2022.07.07.07.42.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 07 Jul 2022 07:42:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "T.V Raman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <25286.61631.305598.944699@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 07:42:07 -0700 To: briangpowellms@gmail.com Cc: yantar92@gmail.com, raman@google.com, maciaschain@posteo.net, theophilusx@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Org mode export accessibility In-Reply-To: References: <87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net> <875ykwvmz7.fsf@posteo.net> <871qvioquw.fsf@gmail.com> <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> <87v8sn3obd.fsf@gmail.com> <87czevr9cn.fsf@posteo.net> <878rpj3dbq.fsf@localhost> <25273.49476.833965.837697@google.com> <87czeq7fjo.fsf@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1657204992; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=d2KhYA9qeZMwQXyKikB72DGRNcvuIE1rsrrdeykij9w=; b=aRbeNZWRm7nvYsm5sHG/exiWZ/Mi4TFZ4o6QXqB7Np0Yz51vZmk7yryD6V8zZHDowQZozs 2aCATCDh3OolR/5tPu7njHkmXsI4eMvzW6n77L2SBlNUK7NYCYIFlXwuba9iSxbIla/8DM L3yCT2RUjY0MzIuQSmGuVR6w1WugIshk04KL6WI2wx+ciSWws7IhiZ7FSh4LZHt69ykLqi F6/JF+eUWL9str49diKUbJf7pV+o7eYHD5cJ+JpHDWj3bXDaRoeYkhv52otY57iEGGP5h+ /VIV5SUXVBli78Kg0pkurKtDAzHLUkCrSV6ydlahlD4ZP/wDTDe6TixUA6g2Fw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1657204992; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=NB8bvH1436BCKxv/jaWt+cmQHPPwHMF/NSGqpX1B8XfvMQBuZK8O2k5sNFwTGAoEcxVPQg JSJm8mlgNI8/yx7XL/yNam+T8vgfzhhu51D0uZsMcPyHuYp+4FXlcm6c/m/FQ8BmVaniPS aTfybf+acMqo3SG6Z74Yqz9vMOkahGjsw0Y1v2/E62JB8/CPGGHDJDbX26bgzU/KLlai6M ZxEpqhoIpWfYFYFIHq5M43cStGYHUpj5m/CJAe2njVVqflcH+8DrfJGhNF0SzAVFsnHE6a 1icz9QQI9rrZZHdrUACu+DH5L95yxUwIMi4YQvBrzxZEX4t31R12WRb5jSDoMQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=VPLNlvN3; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.40 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=VPLNlvN3; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: ADC422B0F5 X-Spam-Score: -1.40 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: Cftx8FdkCKs4 On org side: 1. During authoring, ensure that authors have the ability to label images, drawings and math content. 2. When exporting, make sure that that information gets through to the exported format. 3. For math especially, make sure the TeX/LaTeX is preserved one way or the other in the export That's just a few initial thoughts, am sure there could be morebriangpo= well writes: > "[I suspect that the exported documents can similarly be improved to= > reduce the amount of effort required from visually impaired users to= read > such documents. The question is what improvements can be made on > Org side.] >=20 > Best, > Ihor" >=20 > Very glad to hear from TV Raman, the creator of EmacSpeak, >=20 > I'm not blind like TV but I was motivated to turn my a main OrgMode = buffer > into an audio desktop like TV's >=20 > But now back to the topic; much agree with Ihor, we should focus on = "what > improvements can be made on OrgMode side" >=20 > & TV's points are well made too: "pdftex and pdflatex were built in = the > late 90's"--very true & they were rarely useful >=20 > Suggest OrgMode make changes aimed at the "Lowest Common Denominator= " of > accessibility--accessibility in the visual sense AND in the machine = or > program processable sense or more exactly the "document convertible > sense"--I mean documents should be made firstly in a form that all > computers can easily navigate & present on computer screens and/or a= udio > desktops in addition to being readily able to print out >=20 > TV's right, the usual pipeline of LaTeX->PDF can produce tagged & us= eful > documents but can an end user easily copy and paste the document=3F = How > useful are pretty documents that run on proprietary systems=3F Many = PDF's can > make simple processes like this very hard or impossible--the documen= ts can > be very pretty but they can contain control characters & special cha= racters > & even malicious code >=20 > Suggest OrgMode outputs focus on creating "Lowest Common Denominator= " > documents as output: > TeXinfo docs should be used as the LCD doctype--suggest you focus on= > creating 1 document in Texinfo that you use to create all other sort= s of > documents, when possible: >=20 > Pipeline should be more like > OrgMode->Texinfo->TROFF||DTD/XML/HTML/XHTML->LaTeX/TeX->DVI||SVG->PS= ->PDF >=20 > * TeXinfo: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/texinfo > https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo >=20 > ** "Texinfo uses a single source file to produce output in a number = of > formats, both online and printed (dvi, html, info, pdf, xml, etc.). = This > means that instead of writing different documents for online informa= tion > and another for a printed manual, you need write only one document. = And > when the work is revised, you need revise only that one document. T= he > Texinfo system is integrated well with GNU Emacs. >=20 > *** Texinfo docs can also be viewed & used by ALL end-users without = any > issues--regardless of the power of their computer or monitor or even= if > they're blind like TV Raman--he uses an audio desktop or EmacSpeak--= and the > same docs can be printed on any printer & remain navigable with "rn"= & > other simple news-reading software--or the "info" program >=20 > * Output formats currently supported by Texinfo: > https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html=5Fnode/Outp= ut-Formats.html > <=3D> Info,Text,HTML,DVI,PostScript{PS},PDF,DocBook,XML >=20 > ** Related/useful may be: "latex2nemeth"--a LATEX to Braille/Nemeth,= > approach "Simple pictures in PSTricks are also supported in order to= > produce tactile graphics": https://ctan.org/pkg/latex2nemeth >=20 > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:53 AM Ihor Radchenko = wrote: >=20 > > "T.V Raman" writes: > > > > > 1. Accessibility as word used in isolation has now become mostly= > > > meaningless, to be concrete one has to ask "Accessibility to = whom"=3F > > > > > > 2. So in the following, everything I say is with respect to user= s with > > > visual impairments. > > > > This is exactly the perspective I was hoping to hear from you. Tho= ugh > > this thread is not dedicated to visual impairments. (I guess you a= lso > > did not touch the question of color blindness). > > > > > 3. It's incorrect to define "Accessibility" in terms of a specif= ic > > > user access tool or technology -- that usage is marketing jar= gon > > > for a specific Access Solution like a screenreader --- so I r= efrain > > in general from > > > defining this in terms of Screenreaders. > > > > Yet, in order to simplify the efforts needed to read a document ex= ported > > from Org mode one needs to use some kind of tool/technology. Unles= s a > > common standard exist in this area, we have to support at least th= e most > > common Access Solutions (prioritizing Free software, if possible).= > > > > From you message, it does not look like there is any common standa= rd. > > > > > With those meta-thoughts out of the way: > > > > > > A: Org-generated documents are mostly well-structured documents,= and ... > > > B: The LaTeX->PDF pipeline *can* produce tagged PDF with respect= to ... > > > C: pdftex and pdflatex were built in the late 90's by a student = in ... > > > D: All that said, it is likely still easier to go from org->HTML= ... > > > > Do I understand correctly that you have no issues with reading doc= uments > > exported using current version of Org=3F > > > > > E: Finally, note that in (D) I said "machine processable" not > > > "Accessible"; machine-processable is a pre-requisite to "repurpo= se " > > > what you publish, and making that result usable by different us= er > > > communities is a direct consequence of suche machine-processabil= ity. > > > > I understand. But one can similarly say that .org files are "machi= ne > > processable" and Org export code is not strictly necessary. Yet, i= t ends > > up extremely useful in practice. > > > > I suspect that the exported documents can similarly be improved to= > > reduce the amount of efforts required from visually impair users t= o read > > such documents. The question is what kinds improvements can be mad= e on > > Org side. > > > > Best, > > Ihor > > > > --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=89 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE -- Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) ♉ Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮