From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Neil Hepburn Subject: Re: AI for orgmode Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:52:21 -0600 Message-ID: <234C6E0B-055E-461F-90C8-9B6B1F25C36D@ualberta.ca> References: <45c323461003191748m44a2ed57n33ef4104771e3bb1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsnrc-0000Zc-FB for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:52:32 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47028 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsnra-0000ZT-Hp for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:52:32 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsnrY-0005VM-6n for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:52:30 -0400 Received: from smtp.srv.ualberta.ca ([129.128.5.19]:54454 helo=mail9.srv.ualberta.ca) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsnrX-0005V2-Qn for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 21:52:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: <45c323461003191748m44a2ed57n33ef4104771e3bb1@mail.gmail.com> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Darlan Cavalcante Moreira Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Leo , Carsten Dominik Hi All I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my own = very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my experiences may = help shed some light on things. Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three weeks). = I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally over the years = but only recently started using it extensively because of ESS and = AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert --- I know how to start it = and use some of its tools but configuring it is not something I can = claim to know anything about.=20 I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and came = across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each of them = provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where I started. = On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration issue and tried = looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get anywhere. It wasn't = until I tried using mobileorg that I started to develop a better = understanding of things. I was having trouble getting mobileorg to work = and Richard Moreland provided several key bits of information and it on = that basis that I started to piece things together. In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the = manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about emacs = and lisp in general. However, to an emacs novice it seems to assume a = greater level of background knowledge than what may be reasonable.=20 However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs = novices are better served would likely do a disservice to experienced = emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of minutia and = really basic stuff to get to what's important for them. I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really basic = stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit. In some = respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation stream: The = current documentation as it is for those more experienced and another = one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort of thing.) Anyhow, just my two-cents worth. -Neil=20 PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably = functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus and = iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can just do = it all so much better. On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote: > I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good, = but it > is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the best > things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the = way you > want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or "how = I > want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of = power > users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it = could be > done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me. >=20 > But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups". Maybe = some > tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good. The > tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to = the > previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already = viewed > for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be = more > rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that trying > org-mode. >=20 > Darlan >=20 >=20 > 2010/3/19 John Hendy : >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Hello, >>=20 >> >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who = was >>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with = Emacs >>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp = applications). >>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he >>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he = had >>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that = is >>>> his job. >>>>=20 >>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I >>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but = I >>>> could understand the frustration. >>>=20 >>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup >>> pain in a clever way. >>>=20 >>> - Carsten >>>=20 >>=20 >> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a = couple >> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner = and >> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I = think >> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning = tendencies. >> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing = her >> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely = revolting... >> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because = it made >> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her = and >> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use. >>=20 >> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion: >>=20 >> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the = org-mode >> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but = as >> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would have = helped >> to just know some basics: >> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, = then >> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for = about 4 >> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it! >> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a = location and >> file_name.org to create an org-mode file >> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s >>=20 >> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is = plainly >> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new >> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the = C-this >> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical = levels. >> Example: >> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section >> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines, >> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top = of the >> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and = [pro/de]mote, etc. >> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward? >>=20 >> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner = documentation. >> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for = now) >> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest? >>=20 >> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I = would have >> loved to know: >> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in = general and >> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) = that >> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I = was not >> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life. >> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just = start >> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. = Postpone >> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, = exporting >> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how = to keep >> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), = etc. >>=20 >> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored = to them >> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever = led them >> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank = slates >> with respect to Emacs and need a way to: >> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting = and >> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next >> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut = encyclopedias... >> at first >> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a = little at a >> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something = useful >> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the = full >> depth of what org-mode can do. >>=20 >>=20 >> John >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Darlan Cavalcante Moreira >=20 > "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: = http://www.sdr4all.com/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >=20