From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id EIVPDKlJHGPjBQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 10:24:09 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id oNdnDKlJHGPlHQAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 10:24:09 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79AE51AF06 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 10:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41302 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oWvmY-0005Ko-Jo for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 04:24:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58844) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oWvle-0005Kf-7c for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 04:23:10 -0400 Received: from relay.itccanarias.org ([62.174.94.111]:41938) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oWvlZ-00044p-6m for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 04:23:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.itccanarias.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BC44A109; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 09:21:25 +0100 (WEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at itccanarias.org Received: from relay.itccanarias.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (gwmail-tf.corp.itccanarias.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kc7_ZmxEIF46; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 09:21:23 +0100 (WEST) Received: from Erasure.corp.itccanarias.org (erasure.corp.itccanarias.org [10.141.187.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay.itccanarias.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78AF44A0FA; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 09:21:07 +0100 (WEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 relay.itccanarias.org 78AF44A0FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=itccanarias.org; s=default; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1662797834; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=oqO1kNCUSEGJklr0ZmcJjFhjLponkHqrzA/o6zskIFo=; b=RKAwojBU3bfxkLTeJhD1fMbPX8l7dG18Dk0KZidWenDGlLeFQ5yyNThLXwNZXJk3Drftzp7n3yy PqPuin42KJX9asOBJFDAIm00t066jht6iYsVqGiel4qaRZBaTi2t4hGmZJPQlruiGn0jpCowxIh3E Y2NZFLW/lSi0Ksil2DsjcT3fmOD6GB5s7iZL/6PSPBBQxbLNmv0yNXIiyykl6fTtdU3jdei56kRsl vEdX2G0oCBnCJ0diG//O3WJ6/xzI/3+gyjohd8SIj7MBvJyDLzTbIBdUdt7GCUj4P6wUKlGey4NfQ t3tig42Cxn+rSVK6VedLQNLS9Xkl9d3VgGFA== Received: from itccanarias.org (10.141.153.148) by Erasure.corp.itccanarias.org (10.141.187.131) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.498.0; Sat, 10 Sep 2022 09:17:14 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2022 09:17:12 +0100 From: Eduardo Suarez-Santana To: Tim Cross CC: Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D?= , Subject: Re: Manual Ordering and Dynamic Priority Message-ID: <20220910081712.GA3306824@itccanarias.org> References: <20220831161348.GA2413557@itccanarias.org> <86o7w0q9zr.fsf@gmail.com> <86v8pwjhvi.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86v8pwjhvi.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=62.174.94.111; envelope-from=eduardo@itccanarias.org; helo=relay.itccanarias.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1662798248; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=oqO1kNCUSEGJklr0ZmcJjFhjLponkHqrzA/o6zskIFo=; b=UzKAXyo13EEIQrL5Cbhj/4D1BRBu5GX2GnKWN7S57h1xAq2PgHBE+ieVmXph+1Gu0lyoFx dk6Jx73payJ0s/9rdMcmxR/wjN3JDHb1/VAV+Py/Eu8Bz2XSuz6c54O8h/idfzwhYSQvTu NmtuTzUR3PAneQXU2J9DCv26ZeFGXosyv6GXmhL8hoTqKZzIujlKRObOv8rutwBxlTZpti C0BLV1QVdLjazmIM+HVgTVX6DoMVihBkVIAhXpy6sCD3VR8jILUikfZf21t6GspHBhdt1Q XiYC2asvlocymu+H+ciZd4107qs4O17TSM4BsbxynxhEzbgw4MQE5d0yG19LoA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1662798248; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iFpeTk/aa4yoHhTT7qwORx0hQODDPKvqZZytQmLLnYpJ74Ep5M0wM8J5DwBlFofJr7Z7Cb DNAjPsDattHEJzEZ0Ntkls/TV7v1FfK+HGfDbMHiCk0LvmJMsPLgk4JqfbNrdCNLjSPqYj Vp1lrh5GQqCJQZXIrnGywHULfA+X1WnJJtgdK3stwG+A8FRFnl72/ii+mrJEWxJ1jy5H0r WiwlUX3XDL1ZxG1Ut2QlBCj3u+0yxWKsWw5mZg4HKjRdht83YqlG1tGsRvJMcJrxIbRG9s v+FMX2fzxW87xZNALRpYC3ckmMj4ORkEtLKcgnFh4AU2luu9//VIog3bvI2n0Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=itccanarias.org header.s=default header.b=RKAwojBU; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=itccanarias.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.29 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=itccanarias.org header.s=default header.b=RKAwojBU; dmarc=pass (policy=quarantine) header.from=itccanarias.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 79AE51AF06 X-Spam-Score: -2.29 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: Obdl3ciWg1gI I'd like to show some use cases as examples of long lists that I do not consider micromanagement. I started managing tasks with pen and paper, then Palm, Remember the Milk, and others. None of them worked fine. I reached Org-mode because I have read about it and it was in my try-list. It has not been an easy way, though. Indeed, a try-list is for me an use case for org-mode. The fast pace of technology populates my try-list too fast and I need something to manage it. Sure, they are all optional tasks, but I don't want to review them often and I'd like to have a predefined order to deal with them. Another use case y when dealing with complex systems (servers and services). There is an overload of issues and improvements to take care of. You can triage and solve some new issues, but the others need to be captured, documented and queued. On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 08:05:34AM +1000, Tim Cross wrote: > > Rudolf Adamkovič writes: > > > Tim Cross writes: > > > >> - Life is about getting things done, not planning to get things > >> done. Overly complex management of your tasks is very likely to > >> result in more time spent managing the tasks than actually doing > >> the tasks. > > > > Let me share a slightly different experience. > > > > I used to minimize the time I spent on planning, wanting to start > > "actually doing the tasks". Looking back, it often led to pointless > > work and wasted time. So, I changed my ways! > > > > These days, I do not mind spending half a day, or more, on planning my > > learning week at school. I also do not mind "more time spent managing > > the tasks than actually doing the tasks" because I noticed that it > > might, unexpectedly, change the entire equation. For example, at work, > > I noticed that careful planning, which includes design, can save ten > > times the time it takes, though one never knows for sure beforehand. > > > > For another example, I spent two days designing my Org Agenda. I first > > made some drawings on paper, thinking carefully about what I want from > > it, and then configured Emacs to compute it that way. It might sound > > crazy, for I could have spent those two days "actually doing the tasks", > > but I thank myself every day for doing it! > > > > The difference here is in what we define as planning. For example, I > would not consider 2 days spend designing how my agenda would work as > task planning - that is design work. > > What I'm referring to is having a task management process where you > spend large amounts of time just managing the item 'metadata' - not > actually working on the item at all, but just tracking its state, > progress, priority, etc. > > Planning as a task in itself is very important. I live by the 6Ps > (Piss-poor planning prevents poor performance). However, that planning > effort needs to be focused on moving things forward. Too often, I see > people make the same error with org mode. They develop a complex all > singing and dancing workflow for recording, tracking and managing their > tasks. Before they realise it, they become a slave to the process and > spend lots of time updating task state information, changing priorities > and schedules, making notes which never get read again and tracking > everything at a micro level. AS an extreme example, I saw someone once > who had in their list of tasks "Get out of bed" - honestly, what is > having that task really adding except noise and wasted time. Do you > really need a task telling you to get out of bed? I've seen other > examples where people find they are overwhelmed with the number of tasks > in their task list, but when you look at what they have listed you see > crazy micro level planning e.g. > > 8:00 - Walk to bus stop > 8:15 - Ride bus to Kent st. > 8:45 - Walk from Kent ST. buss stop to office > 9:00 - Turn on office computer > 9:00 - 11:30 - Do office work > ... > > Unless you have some sort of memory issue or learning condition, > planning at this level is largely pointless. This may seem extreme, but > I see people do very similar fine grained task logging in projects as > well. > > Planning, like effort estimating, is a skill and needs practice. All I > am trying to convey is a warning against being overly ambitious or > having overly high expectations regarding org mode and how/when it can > be beneficial. While you can probably capture everything in your life in > plain text org files, doing so may not actually help make your life > easier. I believe you need to be judicious in what you map out as tasks > and in what data you capture. Too much and there is a danger it all > becomes white noise and you become a slave to the process. Our brains > are amazing things which can handle a lot of complexity easily and at a > fast rate - the interface is still faster and more powerful than org and > we should use it to its maximum and apply org to augment it rather than > replace it. Problem is, someone sees org mode for the first time and > their blown away and suddenly can see how they can generate a > comprehensive, concise and well mapped out process for everything they > do. The pendulum swings to far the other way and suddenly, they now have > an additional time consuming maintenance task which is now using time > previously spent actually getting the job done. > > The other danger is of course that we become too dependent on the > technology. We can see this happening now with information like phone > numbers. Even only 20 years ago, most people would memorise and be able > to recall many phone numbers. Recent surveys indicate most people don't > even know the phone number of their spouse! Consider that for a second - > if you lost your mobile phone, how many of the phone numbers of people > close to you can you recall? > -- *Eduardo Suarez-Santana* Departamento de Computación Científica y Tecnológica División de Investigación y Desarrollo Tecnológico *Instituto Tecnológico de Canarias*, S.A. - Gobierno de Canarias Direc: Playa de Pozo Izquierdo, s/n - 35119 Santa Lucía, Las Palmas Telef: (+34) 928.727.583 fax: (+34) 928.727.597 email: esuarez@itccanarias.org url: http://www.itccanarias.org AVISO LEGAL: Este mensaje y los ficheros adjuntos si los hubiere, se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario y puede contener información privilegiada o confidencial. La transmisión errónea del presente mensaje en ningún momento supone renuncia a su confidencialidad. 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