From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id KCiRAIJfTmNXFQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:10:42 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id gCCCAIJfTmPkyAAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:10:42 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B048425F8F for ; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:10:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53892 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okhgO-0003eE-Sh for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 04:10:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54554) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okhbT-0003bb-6r for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 04:05:37 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:35064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1okhbN-0007SL-7P for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 04:05:34 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1okhbK-0004pk-FM for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:05:26 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: Karl Voit Subject: Re: Org-mode syntax as a tool-independent MIME type Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:05:19 +0200 Organization: www.karl-voit.at Message-ID: <2022-10-18T09-57-39@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> References: <871rjhha8t.fsf@gmail.com> <5f5325db.1c69fb81.53d7d.5b93@mx.google.com> <87pn70ai0t.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2log45r.fsf@gmail.com> <87sgbgg9r0.fsf@gmail.com> <2022-10-17T22-36-38@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <87y1tdvppg.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (Linux) X-GPG-Key: http://www.Karl-Voit.at/Karl_Voit_GnuPG_public_key.gpg X-Registered-Linux-User: 224337 X-Confession: Pastafarian http://www.venganza.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Voit Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1666080641; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=gidgF0cFcK3SKVk5W92Vj/FCOpwy5aNvEzPfv075RUQ=; b=lRXnlgNJ97jgSDerZ4DWlXe+pZKIwRIiyWYYecxK1qtEmWBge+yz6VRMNSGwZb2o3udXNd yQR54VNo9nFKSPKp3eOZdhCD/sxcKcTaKDYkWM3AjSaHhjEWZOvGoBnMukcYNc6SLbxcF4 gXzuyn1ecMgHSjka4e4d+9mXLiOAthRecudxSSJYclZGpH5bTVkwEmX1iOI+9t022F04co 0EB/a9bfwO08kCS0rJE+QolNb1L+sL8CaSCNHyQsJ1c2r6lA6fAhSW4linwQr4cXE0SM59 u930CfnKIZHvXHKpkhxccztbEtBtydIiEJwQTQZOxFSHd/YidHfvYUKtUyxOTw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1666080641; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MrsbNAu+fFitrpzMZlfUSojxHpabiJfhYiuTWfTYOTIL0hdRx9cr3fIGIXFC2cQH9D5gJF Ol1L6jhWpX7JsPG/pnKe560vs2TiGq9S7lH8l9oKd1fndF245aOwqukmIjMeqSE+VJ0Yti JZoiK/n+PvAwJFZqeGMd9cHtB2HkYgzYyaoHNoDaTzPMWpgu5shF6GIQW2Ef2jFC50MKoB f4gKj0SAgvwwDugDHjXE/MbukzHqhuLQKs4dje3CIXnFlSxnri897BHG0clEUZAb4YTpnn bkTgqjYp9LGSE+C8FBRzLAdKYBVPPD7QLYtv8wMac0ryrp3c63pMmE4qq5SGSQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.22 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B048425F8F X-Spam-Score: -2.22 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 08L/2G879OEJ Hi Timothy, * Timothy wrote: > --=-=-= > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Off topic: Something's quite off here with the encoding at least at my side (using slrn). I might be related to my setup, can't tell at the moment. > Hi Karl, > >> For reasons explained in my Orgdown-related articles[1] I would >> propose to use this chance to introduce a different term for the >> Org-mode lightweight markup language in contrast to the Org-mode >> Elisp implementation in order to push the syntax in a tool-agnostic >> way. > > Personally, I don=E2=80=99t see the need for a split. If anything, it seems= > harmful to > me. In my personal experience, people often seem to mix both things in discussions, causing unnecessary loops and conflicts. To me, a different name is very important. From the response related to OD, I might be in a minority here. If you want to push the format, you'd have to use "Org-mode syntax" or "Org-mode syntax file" or similar. People who are aware of the difference to the implementation mostly do not use words that differ here. So in my opinion, a slightly different term would help. It's not a dramatic difference, it's more subtle for most people. > What I=E2=80=99ve taken to doing is referring to org-mode files outside= > Emacs simply > as Org files, and I think this works well for a number of reasons, not leas= > t because: > =E2=81=83 It creates a 1-1 corespondency with the file extension, think abo= > ut how > markdown is often referred to as =E2=80=9CMD=E2=80=9D due to the .md file= > extension. > =E2=81=83 I also see other people naturally talking about =E2=80=9COrg file= > s=E2=80=9D online, so this is > partway to being a de-facto convention You're right. I do think that this is mostly because of lack of an alternative. > =E2=81=83 I think it=E2=80=99s less confusing having =E2=80=9COrg=E2=80=9D = > be related with =E2=80=9Corg-mode=E2=80=9D than > =E2=80=9COrgDown=E2=80=9D (or similar), and should people familiar with o= > ne come across > mention of the other it should thus reduce the chance of confusion. > > What I do see the need for is the development of more resources on the form= > at > itself (like the org-syntax document). Done right this should be a boon to = > both > org-mode and Org outside Emacs. Absolutely. >> I proposed the term Orgdown for the Org-mode syntax and also >> proposed various levels in order to provide sub-sets of Org-mode >> syntax[3] that are realistic to implement with finite effort. Using >> those OD-levels to come up with a formal definition (EBNF?) might >> play perfectly well with different parameters of the MIME type[4]. >> >> In my opinion, this would be a huge step forward for the whole >> ecosystem that supports the same Org-mode syntax. >> >> If we do not keep the MIME type independent from the GNU Emacs >> Org-mode implementation, the overall use would be much smaller in >> the long run. > > I find myself holding a contrary position, that we should keep the notion o= > f an > =E2=80=9COrg=E2=80=9D format under the org-mode project to keep everything = > under one umbrella, > as it were. I don´t think that this is a contrary position. OD is supposed to be a 100% sub-set of Org-mode syntax as implemented in Elisp. -- get mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML into Org-mode: > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs < Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/ Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/