From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 8BYAId6p118vbwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:07:26 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 8NLPHN6p11/RJAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:07:26 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11FF79402C8 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:07:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33730 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kosFp-0005IT-2C for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:07:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44534) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kosEY-0005D7-A2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:06:06 -0500 Received: from se15.route25.eu ([2a00:f10:402:781:1c00:45ff:fe00:24f8]:57928) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kosER-0000iS-B9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2020 13:06:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 19:05:49 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Emacs as an Org LSP server Message-ID: <20201214180549.GE6352@maokai> Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87o8kf69tm.fsf@ucc.asn.au> <87v9d66l75.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6ugpftr.fsf@gmail.com> <877dpkpefs.fsf@gmail.com> <873608pai7.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <873608pai7.fsf@gmail.com> X-Originating-IP: 2a00:f10:400:2:425:b2ff:fe00:1c1 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 2a00:f10:400:2:425:b2ff:fe00:1c1 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nsuc8SxhYVa6GVqYe+Fhj2P/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVyhfhMr/zRGoUL5DcCK43sELHh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxm4QkJggs3qcggktx4xDHvO8ztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DKHTJKUszoTkZ7Os22LS8m7Z Kiwjw0C1988hbp8bzgwghzAl5xZcScT5g+mFF56JBYJ3mJdgm5kNXP0WDog0Kp4c1mOJd7ywkTyi c/cnOYraTQ6AFTayP6dTZsf3XPpdToxsiphzBDqnNyjqlruS5wNH19GBakJIU7SXv9CK6g5wx6fl tbaaPuCmX416XzZpXq3zmN1DVbvEznYzgq9IOJt7gNF+dEVzoz/J47oQLlEQQ2ftKMYSwlXQE9M6 7mF3F4dHv+/tl6eVJJnwasv/xw0FXrp9kvfMEU1a+4C9jS3t75T156Daw4/c5VjDM8pOdnVUQ2Qu 9L8TtMXO4oxlCvk+f+3U2jpSj8FKhfs/SjAiYnNGFdRN3CtPPBjSHkIxZXA4TzarQ3HAefg5I7dq nJlGsrVQ6Z0POpPUqTFWuATUoSyaA1TzQpMNBxbB7RLiYFYq922Wf+VLnUUJCa5XEkPBdYzH5SHs 7OXwC7D2RhUakVeP0KKaUuURe5cMAahC9AqyQAnpqFMUCHx10ohhTE8xL7hrJSk60SF3F6RYOYr2 X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:402:781:1c00:45ff:fe00:24f8; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se15.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.81 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 11FF79402C8 X-Spam-Score: -1.81 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: RqG+e/O9QFCw On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 01:08:47AM +0800, TEC wrote: > > Jean Louis writes: > > > [LSP is a evil plot from microsoft] > > I can see that you're overly concerned about Microsoft being able to > somehow exert control over this. It may assuage your concerns to see an > example "technology stack" that Org-LSP could fit into. REST API calls to a remote server as a core part of editing text in your editor isn't concerning? How remote? How would you know? If they use HTTPS could you even see what is sent? > Microsoft has provided a /standard/ that a huge number of editors/IDEs > have adopted with /independent implementations/. At this point there is > /nothing/ M$ could do to interfere with how the above works. Microsoft doesn't make standards that it can't corrupt or take advantage of. See LDAP/AD, HTML extensions, programming language extensions that makes their solutions incompatible with standards. > You seem to be focusing on the term "server" in the name. This seems to > be a red herring in this case. In LSP the server is analogous to "emacs > --daemon" and the client to "emacsclient". REST = web server. Using to make JSON requests over what you are editing and your editor requiring the ability to send/receive to a potential remote web server is a valid concern. Emacs daemon is a local socket interface (by default) for communication between processes on the same box. > I appreciate your concerns Jean, and am aware of Microsoft's history, > however I do not believe there is any factual basis for your conclusions > in this instance. Tainted, definitions quoted from https://www.thefreedictionary.com/tainted - To affect or associate with something undesirable or reprehensible: a reputation that was tainted by allegations of illegal activity. - An undesirable or corrupting influence or association: wanted to avoid the taint of an accounting scandal. This is the point. Given Microsoft's shameful history, any project they are supporting is *tainted* by their corrupting influence and association. That LSP is pushed by MS makes it undesirable due to their reputation. That Github is now owned by MS makes it tainted by their reputation. Companies, just like individuals should be judged by their actions. Microsoft's well earned poor reputation is sufficient reason to exclude them from any open source effort. I must conclude that MS is supporting LSP because they believe it will increase market share for their proprietary editors. This is due to their reputation and historic behavior. Thus I have no desire to support LSP and thus not support MS indirectly. You might be tired of this kind of debate, but imagine how those of us who have been in IT for 20 or 30 years are tired of being told that the abuse we have repeatedly endured from MS is somehow no longer relevant. That somehow we're wrong to point out we have suffered abuse from a technology monopoly, and that we are weary and intolerant of those enabling it (ie: govts, CIOs, end users with fancy toys). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3