From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id WIpgIQSOs19faAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:47:00 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id gLphHQSOs198TQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:47:00 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA4FD940367 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:46:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59286 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kewdd-0002z0-GH for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:46:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36422) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kewd3-0002yn-0O for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:46:21 -0500 Received: from mail-sender-5.unibw-hamburg.de ([139.11.10.105]:50521 helo=premail.unibw-hamburg.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kewcz-00037c-D9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 03:46:20 -0500 Received: from rzav4.unibw-hamburg.de ([139.11.12.54]:59708) by premail.unibw-hamburg.de with esmtp (HSU Mailserver) (envelope-from ) id 1kewcx-0006V2-40 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:46:15 +0100 IronPort-SDR: ygNE3FJHOWvorwzFXAShgOZ8mCKtbO9SqM4orUJDeJ0HqPU3K+gXUse/TH4DJ0k9Tm80i/c2ah daWwL6RXuyzTLXntnI9SH+9VRRtg/aNzxuLz34zWrSz1MLNloIORVmN+D46BRpYbSWDtNM3Xtl BIqwJO12s0FDryNnU0sOFngjZLmncEjilMkefSeVRJR2cORjc2sdZSp4RVSXO9BvNqyIwvmd4G wfkXECyfy25aeil/iAKaN3DJqtHdiXIjf55MpWz1BzqLjocVVeunVwBLhwJo2Bu20XK/CoqPwG 0RE= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.77,485,1596492000"; d="scan'208";a="59661605" Received: from mailcluster-1.unibw-hamburg.de (HELO premail.unibw-hamburg.de) ([139.11.5.101]) by rzav4.unibw-hamburg.de with ESMTP; 17 Nov 2020 09:46:15 +0100 Received: from dynamic-095-116-078-174.95.116.pool.telefonica.de ([95.116.78.174]:41070 helo=linux-h0yu.fritz.box) by premail.unibw-hamburg.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (HSU Mailserver) (envelope-from ) id 1kewcw-00063R-Rp; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:46:14 +0100 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:45:40 +0100 From: Detlef Steuer To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Message-ID: <20201117094535.24abd128@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> In-Reply-To: <87h7povo3p.fsf@web.de> References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <87pn4d9e95.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7povo3p.fsf@web.de> Organization: HSU X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.8 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HSU-Virusscan: Routed to first Viruswall X-Brisant: Sender steuer@hsu-hh.de X-HSU-Virusscan: First Viruswall passed X-Authenticated-Sender: 13438/95.116.78.174 X-HSU-Virusscan: Routed to second Viruswall (Cisco Ironport ESAV) X-Brisant: Sender steuer@hsu-hh.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=139.11.10.105; envelope-from=prvs=0590e1c2fb=steuer@hsu-hh.de; helo=premail.unibw-hamburg.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/17 03:45:43 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Tim Cross , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-TUID: s3YoykMcX4va Am Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:11:38 +0100 schrieb "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" : > The only way that works is to avoid breakage on update =E2=80=94 except f= or > the few cases where it is truly unavoidable. Well, and as long as the change can be reverted when the community has a thoughtful discussion with those who did the work, the world is wonderful. Even if the devels insist they did the right thing, but the=20 discussion brought up way to mitigate the fallout, all is fine.=20 I even get the feeling of being part of a great community through this very discussion! So ...civilized. A warm fire in the wild net. It is *impossible* to force users to be informed. Think about us: We all hang around on this list and missed the information. What would reasonably be expected from a casual user? Often it is not even clear what the consequences are, even if you read the NEWS. "Org now uses electric-indent" only is meaningful to very few people who can guess what that will mean for their workflow.=20 It *seems* impossible to me to be backward compatible forever via code snippets or any other mechanism. You can maybe skip one or two update cycles, but then it will be like pinning a specific git version. One can do that already, but it should not increase the burden of the devels. If those don't have fun anymore, we are lost :-) So we have to live with a breakage from time to time, I guess, but org has very few of those. And it always comes out of these breakages better! Detlef