From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 8K5eG+9MoV+cHAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 12:28:31 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id eDY6F+9MoV/ZDwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 12:28:31 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7AD69403D3 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:28:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44250 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZvQK-0000QI-8U for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 07:28:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49174) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZvPk-0000Ok-68 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 07:27:52 -0500 Received: from se18.route25.eu ([2a00:f10:400:4:1c00:18ff:fe00:1617]:53554) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZvPf-0002FO-HC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 07:27:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:27:36 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org Message-ID: <20201103122736.GC22009@maokai> Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87eelaeixa.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87eelaeixa.fsf@gmail.com> X-Originating-IP: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0XvADx2zSFwG+3csxFBPBHmpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDLZy6c0DmV/7RK6letuHor9Q5 3pMmTXeVbblO3cSIiVCUaNUkZYXLfQ/LsOMyOtviJODXbtOodkPED+RkHjVGH9gpfPe2lDQBFQc5 pWKjU8U1TnR+f0U9cu064nZcMieLAqdkk6hppCDsqsBwLjHur1XxB26GtR7aQdGQ3RxVouttwXp1 RdEU8VHZI5KGZSviaHwJ2eESrUp0Iw/gSJ3HqMuR600P9eQ3vodupN36MrkzGQZS068e3EYTgNAB jZkD8TzPF4eG61o+cxFZrUIXowfXJosMX5ZQSlYSVlCDu2na8Lc2iK0mXNgodhRh0E6+UMVFei1G 2PrSIU9EwioS70yFBF2moUWeHNDS4qZDIDBdjx85xQq9VD42UbTRudBo31/E3ahF5MMcDI7KdpjQ KULbtCr8aoTjHIUEuG3LCVsCW2UOyugPPaOGK1ZclZhyJ1oAKHx1qHjvOGXm6QB+mk6ZTzCPKsFf twxbkg5OTEJBSZDxFdMdjhWKQRs1y634NtkDir044XKUvwzb23wQ7pgpf21taAxkVvyytXnHYuSu bSmStGWOGGgSK1GI3HI/B5hQ6nsDvccjqgmDvD9Wh0yFsY2Z2oGTB2IF2g6y44/ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvEyoAEK4rsNWk4mvtBc9RUW7Qh3gWh36mDf/2VxyYC7eGuP0YIX8qMA5MLNz4roJ5fJm0 upKSve0wm86CwEVU9yoP1crucQHJMXtvi9qhAOtm4zuNRcgRKiGg7nXFaZTxVtvfGUGUq3gP3sz9 6chjQ/thtU3VbZiduO40Yo9l2XF6coSh1XA3fOLJ37wDhYziT8A73IOjFaUxVIYlf6k/MfIjQKAZ fI/jcX6o1g9K5ZwJhmYqJ0PIxX89f7dLTMqse5FhVBQaO03dzx9rAMZnZXrgXdZHl2vqCbCSy9Ix 3eltOv8yJ5cKtwxhveW3ZWTI X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:400:4:1c00:18ff:fe00:1617; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se18.route25.eu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/03 07:27:39 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.51 X-TUID: +DUZW0yzw03j On Tue, Nov 03, 2020 at 04:14:41AM -0800, Ken Mankoff wrote: > It seems like you have never used Orgzly or read on Org file on > GitHub. Those are not ideas, but are actual current real-world > win-win implementations of parts of Org outside of Emacs. Supporting a subset of trivial formatting options from Org should be that, trivial. Those items are not changing and fairly standardized already. Could an existing Markdown importer be trivially altered to support basic Org formats? I suspect that's what Github did. If that's the case, why are we even arguing? What is missing that so desperately needs standardization? > Again: GitHub. Orgzly. The conversation should move from "it can't > be done" or "it isn't helpful" (why so much negativity on this > thread?) to Not negative for negative sake or dismissing new ideas. However understand there is a lack of resources working on Org as it stands today. Org has grown exponentially in use cases for years, and there's no way to expect our devs to keep up with that, much less tooling for users outside of Emacs. I'm barely involved in the periphery, but I've watched since 2006. It's a thankless job maintaining any popular OSS project. I'm grateful for what has been done already, I have no standing to ask for more or demand time spent on outside software. We are already having to argue over what is core, and what is an addon because every advanced user has extensions they want to make. Org ballooned dramatically and is having to be trimmed. > + What parts can be standardized and re-implemented outside of > Emacs. I'm negative on this because it's outside of Emacs. I like having clear documentation and a good reference for the benefit of Emacs users. Why ask for developer time for external environments? Why contribute to centralized non-free services who exploit our integration for more marketshare? > + How do we support 3rd-party implementation in a way that benefits > all of us. I'd rather invest our time on improving our internal implementation, documentation, and support. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3