From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id MAvQA87enl+dFAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 16:14:06 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id gPJ0O83enl/leAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 16:14:05 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 842ED9403E6 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 16:14:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56846 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZFzW-0004nL-Fy for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 11:14:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZFz2-0004n8-BO for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 11:13:32 -0500 Received: from se13.route25.eu ([2a00:f10:121:a00:1c00:efff:fe00:1854]:44134) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZFyz-0004FN-5G for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 11:13:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 17:13:17 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org Message-ID: <20201101161317.GA6609@maokai> Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.04) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0XvADx2zSFwG+3csxFBPBHmpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVflzVxll9EiGg s+jC4kIE5kTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDLZy6c0DmV/7RK6letuHor9Q5 3pMmTXeVbblO3cSIiVAKK9J7XSYrXJgyT5l++YoDJODXbtOodkPED+RkHjVGH9gpfPe2lDQBFQc5 pWKjU8U1TnR+f0U9cu064nZcMieLAqdkk6hppCDsqsBwLjHur1XxB26GtR7aQdGQ3RxVouuEZ9Nq eiQHl0oUF/vn0ZGBaHwJ2eESrUp0Iw/gSJ3HqMuR600P9eQ3vodupN36MrkzGQZS068e3EYTgNAB jZkD8TzPF4eG61o+cxFZrUIXowfXJosMX5ZQSlYSVlCDu2na8Lc2iK0mXNgodhRh0E6+UMVFei1G 2PrSIU9EwioS70yFBF2moUWeHNDS4qZDIDBdjx85xQq9VD42UbTRudBo31/E3ahF5MMcDI7KdpjQ KULbtCr8aoTjHIUEuG3LCVsCW2UOyugPPaOGK1ZclZhyJ1oAKHx1qHjvOGXm6QB+mk6ZTzCPKsFf twxbkg5OTEJBSZDxFdMdjhWKQRs1y634PNxyi5hJyfZTqqCPnGEeWnCZYEPFJ9jPhhI9UQAFTdAf Dtt3bEI3RHVy/yn2oV3oB5hQ6nsDvccjqgmDvD9Wh0yFsY2Z2oGTB2IF2g6y44/ujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvEyoAEK4rsNWk4mvtBc9RUW7Qh3gWh36mDf/2VxyYC7eGuP0YIX8qMA5MLNz4roJ5DiaE 6ib5fPrcnE1ldY0UuJ2bRJmu+8e8KoXMgm+YQxFm4zuNRcgRKiGg7nXFaZTxVtvfGUGUq3gP3sz9 6chjQ/thtU3VbZiduO40Yo9l2XF6coSh1XA3fOLJ37wDhYziT8A73IOjFaUxVIYlf6k/MfIjQKAZ fI/jcX6o1g9K5ZwJhmYqJ0PIxX89f7dLTMqse5FhVBQaO03dzx9rAMZnZXrgXdZHl2vqCbCSy9Ix 3eltOv8yJ5cKtwxhveW3ZWTI X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:121:a00:1c00:efff:fe00:1854; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se13.route25.eu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/01 11:13:23 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.51 X-TUID: dDjF0op6w7ed On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 08:22:01PM -0400, Asa Zeren wrote: > First, I would like to repeat the importance of developing standards > for org-mode. If we want to expand the influence of org, tooling must > expand beyond Emacs. I disagree. There are other open text based formats outside of Emacs. That Org is so compelling is because it's tightly integrated into an Emacs mode which makes using Org data so easy. Like many open source projects no one is paid to work on and develop Org. Despite the best volunteer efforts, Org has burnt out many volunteer maintainers along the way. To ask for more of Org outside of Emacs when the main Org project inside Emacs is understaffed seems a backward notion to me. > While Emacs is an amazing tool, (a) we cannot convince the entire > world to use Emacs We also cannot expect our maintainers to spend their time on the world outside of Emacs. > (b) org-mode should be integrated into tooling unrelated to text > editing, and is outside of the Emacs-Lisp environment. Isn't that the opposite goal? Org mode is all about your data being text only and easy to edit inside Emacs, so why would "unrelated to text editing and outside Emacs" be of any interest or worth any time? > Without additional org implementations, this is impossible. If org > catches on before it is standardized, we end up in the situation of > Markdown, with many competing standards and non-standards. Hence, > standardization is essential. Org has caught on. Org has a reference implementation, which you could consider the standard parser. Org isn't just the format, it's the editing experience. That's only realized inside of Emacs. Could it benefit from better documentation, and finishing up some rough edges? Of course. That would be an excellent place to spend volunteer time. I can't recommend asking for volunteer time on tools outside of Emacs though. I've recommended a few times now the idea that if you want to work on Org data outside of Emacs, use Org to do an export your data into a machine readable format (xml, json, etc). Don't parse it directly from text. I believe there are already exporters which can help with that, and they may be worthy of additional effort. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3