From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Carsten Dominik Subject: Re: A simpler remember architecture (was: Re: Re: is there a hook to save a remember buffer?) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:50:19 +0200 Message-ID: <120064D0-FCDF-4B7E-A7D1-933CC9D0F52D@gmail.com> References: <20524da70909291348m6e1a6611ve01d6dac2faca93c@mail.gmail.com> <2647742D-5A30-4F33-8FDF-E5203B2E0246@gmail.com> <3d6808890909300745i4213a0ddo9e12be00c4bb4023@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Mt0Vi-000584-E6 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:50:30 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Mt0Vd-00055O-1H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:50:29 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=38555 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Mt0Vc-00055J-Pm for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:50:24 -0400 Received: from mail-ew0-f208.google.com ([209.85.219.208]:48660) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Mt0Vc-0007Gc-1R for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:50:24 -0400 Received: by ewy4 with SMTP id 4so4516235ewy.31 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:50:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3d6808890909300745i4213a0ddo9e12be00c4bb4023@mail.gmail.com> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Tim O'Callaghan Cc: org-mode On Sep 30, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Tim O'Callaghan wrote: > +1, can we keep/have: > - the templates, yes > - possibility to 'pick file/topic first then remember' No. The idea would be that you refile then or later. > - 'throw it into the bucket for later'. what does that mean? > - org - remember keymap Why do you need this? > - local fontification? Why do you need this? > - remove need to have remember package installed? That need does not exist even now. - Carsten > > Tim. > > 2009/9/30 Carsten Dominik : >> I don't know what the others think.... >> >> ... but I think this is a brilliant idea. >> >> - Carsten >> >> On Sep 29, 2009, at 10:48 PM, Samuel Wales wrote: >> >>> Hi Carsten, >>> >>> Here is an idea for a much simpler remember architecture that >>> simultaneously solves Alan's problem. >>> >>> 1) To me also, a more complicated way to deal with >>> remember buffers feels wrong. >>> 2) If there is more than one thing you are working on, the >>> power of the org hierarchy feels like the best way to >>> keep track. >>> >>> 3) The current remember probably does not do what Alan >>> wants, even with a better workflow. >>> - What if you want to remember from remember? >>> - It feels complicated to finalize the old idea and go >>> there, then remember the new one, then finish the old >>> one, then go back to where you were. Maybe we can >>> simplify. >>> - When you've finished the old one, you want to restore >>> context to before the old idea. This is probably >>> impossible. The stack is blown. >>> 4) Other issues: >>> - If you forget to finalize, you lose data. >>> - It is easy to reflexively call remember from remember, >>> making you surprised that the old idea disappeared. >>> - You might forget that you had the old idea. >>> Especially if you are having short-term memory issues >>> or are distracted. >>> >>> 5) Here is my idea: discard the concept of remember >>> buffers entirely. >>> - Create the entry at the target location when you call >>> org-remember. >>> - Employ a virtual buffer to narrow to the created >>> entry. >>> >>> 6) Some benefits: >>> 1) Alan can remember, then remember again, then >>> remember a third time without having to save >>> remember buffers or name them (which he would need). >>> 2) Your idea is where it should be. If you want >>> context, you simply remove the narrowing. >>> 3) org has access to the target buffer's buffer-local >>> variables, org variables, encoding and multilingual >>> settings of the target, etc. >>> 4) Auto-save saves to a place where Emacs will pick it >>> up again if Emacs crashes. >>> 5) A backup directory is no longer necessary to restore >>> data from a killed (remember) buffer. >>> 6) Finalizing is no longer a matter of losing your data >>> if you forget. It merely pops windows. >>> >>> 7) If you still want the concept of "I am not done >>> remembering this remember," add a tag (:REMEMBERING:) >>> at creation time and have org-remember-finalize remove >>> that tag. To see in-progress remembers, call the >>> agenda on that tag. >>> >>> 8) This eases yak shaving. >>> - http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html >>> - This is a simple way to keep track of what you were >>> doing when you remember from remember. >>> - I recommend making org-remember-finalize use a >>> /stack/, so that successive invocations recreate the >>> previous window/buffer context until they get to the >>> original context. >>> - I think that we intuitively work in stacks. This >>> lets us avoid overloading our own memory. >>> - If Emacs crashes, the worst thing that will happen is >>> that you end up with a bunch of :REMEMBERING: tasks >>> around your org files. Not lost data. >>> >>> To summarize, the current remember naturally leads to the >>> need for increasing workarounds, and therefore requests for >>> features, which leads to more complexity. By leveraging the >>> power of the org hierarchy, we can simplify, and get yak >>> shaving support as a nice surprise benefit. >>> >>> Let me know what you think. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 02:37, Carsten Dominik >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Allen, >>>> >>>> saving remember buffers is hackish and complex as it is, so I am >>>> not >>>> going >>>> to add this option. >>>> >>>> I think the workflow has to be this: >>>> >>>> Create a remember buffer and more-or-less immediately file it. >>>> >>>> If you need to work on the content for a longer time, work on it >>>> at the >>>> target location: Simply exit remember with C-u C-c C-c. The >>>> buffer will >>>> be >>>> filed and the target location will be visited immediately. So >>>> now you >>>> can >>>> work there as long as you want, and start another remember >>>> process when >>>> you >>>> need one. >>>> >>>> HTH >>>> >>>> - Carsten >>>> >>>> On Sep 9, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Alan E. Davis wrote: >>>> >>>>> I've looked briefly into the org-remember.el. A hook exists: >>>>> remember-mode-hook. Im not sure it can be successfully applied >>>>> to the >>>>> case >>>>> I envision. >>>>> >>>>> THere are tradeoffs to immediately saving a remember buffer to a >>>>> file, >>>>> and >>>>> editing a note in the remember buffer, then saving with >>>>> remember-finalize. >>>>> I don't remember what they are, as they led me away from >>>>> immediately >>>>> saving >>>>> quite a while ago. I was strongly encouraged by the >>>>> establishment of a >>>>> procedure to automatically save to a directory, any remember >>>>> buffer that >>>>> was >>>>> not finallized. I had some issues with it, including how clunky >>>>> it was >>>>> to >>>>> recover, and it was broken at some point, when I was too busy to >>>>> fix it. >>>>> >>>>> One problem with editing in the Remember buffer, then saving >>>>> later, is >>>>> forgetting where I am. I can rely on several remember >>>>> templates, and >>>>> too >>>>> often have lost the remember buffer's contents, when I ran >>>>> remember >>>>> again. >>>>> >>>>> What I propose is the make it possible---optionally---to invoke >>>>> a hook >>>>> to >>>>> save existing remember buffers when C-c C-r (X) is used to file a >>>>> remember >>>>> note while in the remember buffer already. >>>>> >>>>> I found a test "bufferp". It does not seem to recognize the >>>>> buffer name >>>>> "Remember", nor "*Remember*". >>>>> >>>>> Is it possible to do this, or is remember going to defeat this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alan Davis >>>>> >>>>> You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the >>>>> world, but >>>>> when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever >>>>> about the >>>>> bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing--- >>>>> that's what >>>>> counts. >>>>> >>>>> ----Richard Feynman >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Alan E. Davis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Is there a hook to save the remember buffer when I type C-c C-r >>>>> when I'm >>>>> in an unsaved remember buffer? That would be almost as good, >>>>> perhaps >>>>> better, than saving the remember buffer to a special file or >>>>> directory. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the >>>>> world, but >>>>> when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever >>>>> about the >>>>> bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing--- >>>>> that's what >>>>> counts. >>>>> >>>>> ----Richard Feynman >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006) >>> and severe suffering. Conflicts of interest are destroying >>> research. What people "know" is wrong. Silence = death. >>> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>