From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id cOPXFQ86kl7ZQAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:43:43 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 4b1QGxE6kl69XAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:43:45 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F8E940020 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 21:43:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56604 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jNNuf-0001Mv-Ik for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:43:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51995) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jNNu5-0001Mn-NK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:43:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNNu4-00045K-La for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:43:05 -0400 Received: from mout-p-102.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050::465:102]:34726) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNNu4-00042D-2z for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:43:04 -0400 Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:1:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-102.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4907fC02jkzKmYM; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:42:59 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:mime-version :subject:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:reply-to:from :from:date:date:received; s=mail20150812; t=1586641376; bh=uFGZn VjDe/TJ3uxEf+0YSKADC4sQVuUbef7T8vBSmx0=; b=F/ooKun8h8zoNATB7w1wc 8/RqfGTZZW1U8XNNSQAi/Erej1QFIWckkmakUQQ1fm0yqVfe5Gwp9/xhss3zT8Zq aXAp3L5lpJqnIQ4sqUZVnGD1h35p+P94qLpP2cd9o2s0mIL2lgeOFG+4QpzziVZy jZift/y3ez0qlI2Fpy6bcwZIisj0NgN2Oav5KYgymmd2EpTiRoJIVbSE99kvo5US x18fMtuB6fjKXUFJllVFPIJFf8CMDDqFaIhuyHX9HUYphNnx3Qe4rVpf3sKbtIGJ +PICB4pAioWBDbNPFp+3bfpIsmm9UHPkeNoUSNsq7dZB+3a5vJMGG8Bc6+dtV1Ka g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1586641377; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=6F+uFBhDhA32Lo1FUhBqvMpUmXV1KY6OlqdwlQiF/rE=; b=r1R/BhBWX2G8H07jZPlVZj2FQylk9cn93tw+GfxSwUP0pGziXJ7nhledXDuxqzia2tCNI9 uG7P9w61v+cr9mQe5BwgmbYKi8FLitUXN27Se1kAE+4qsHhgU1LkSVzAjwaevwePZEFdeq 52TrRaLr4PGElzK81kdI9o37Z5p9i1SPUdiWaEWpfCh8iqhlMemJJH/RBHbtmJPiSvdmWK Y4MngLpV7rRucxl2dV9UjWiBLeXe6Llc+YSMNPeVCklA9+Mo/AaRib9QyzT7K6mvZbgG1U nSk6ZIcOyptkFva5uNqXcGBJoh9k7G6hC2DqDGuJBgTMwVGcGlHqHFMo2ULXmA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) by spamfilter05.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter05.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.123]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id UU06-QZBc9bM; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:42:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:42:55 +0200 (CEST) From: denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org To: Nicolas Goaziou Message-ID: <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> In-Reply-To: <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0F1461772 X-Rspamd-Score: -2.84 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2001:67c:2050::465:102 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: -1.71 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=F/ooKun8; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=r1R/BhBW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [-1.71 / 13.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.579754184315]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.51.188.0/24:c]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.29), country: US(-0.01), ip: 209.51.188.17(-0.58)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[mailbox.org:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.50)[cached: eggs.gnu.org]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[mailbox.org,none]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:209.51.188.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[mailbox.org:s=mail20150812]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: kkoORJQAUZTQ Hi, > Let's assume Org implements SuppressAuthor as "-@doe", so far it has: > > | Syntax | Mode | Sample output | > |---------------------------+---------------------------------+---------------| > | @doe or [cite:@doe] | AuthorInText | Doe (2020) | > | -@doe or [cite:-@doe] | AuthorInText + SuppressAuthor | (2020) | > | [@doe] or [(cite):@doe] | NormalCitation | (Doe, 2020) | > | [-@doe] or [(cite):-@doe] | NormalCitation + SuppressAuthor | (2020) | > > So, we could mix suppress author with some other style, although this > seems useless for the time being. > > Current syntax is not great because it is ad-hoc, and not very > future-proof, if new modes appear. Also, the "(cite)" key is a bit > mouthful, "citep" might have been prettier. Anyway, is it complete > enough? Well, that depends on your target. If you aim for CSL than that's already fairly complete. (Even it's more than complete since the current CSL specification only knows normal citations. Suppressing authors is done by calling applications, and AuthorInText is a pandoc-specific addition.) If you aim for biblatex than there's still a long way to go. Concerning "cite", "(cite)", and "citep" 1. In CSL the basic citation depends on the class of the citation style. Citations appear either as parenthetical citations or in notes. It's not a huge deal, but nevertheless... 2. "citep" is much better than "(cite)", but it is also inaccurate as long as CSL is concerned. So, I'd rather suggest something along these lines: cite: => note citation or parenthetical citation => (Doe 2020) citet => narrative cite => Doe (2020) Of course, you might argue that this is too closely tied to CSL. You could also adopt natbib's cite, citet, citep commands, or biblatex's many cite commands... > Also, there is some ambiguity between modes applying reference-wise, > i.e., "suppress author", and modes applying to the whole reference, > i.e., NormalCitation and AuthorInText. > > Therefore, I'm wondering: has the following any meaning? > > [cite: -@doe; @foo] > [(cite): -@doe; @foo] Good question: I think "[(cite): -@doe; @foo]" is absolutely possible. That would be "(2019; Foo 2020)". But what about "[cite: -@doe; @foo]"? That is certainly more complicated. How do you render multiple narrative citations? Best, Denis