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From: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
To: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>,
	"András Simonyi" <andras.simonyi@gmail.com>
Cc: org-mode-email <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: org-cite: make 'suppress-author' a citation 'style'
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 11:05:24 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <066b9ded-2b4a-c201-2e29-75f5630856e3@mailbox.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <936a4d73-6d16-cb91-f897-1b8037a9cc3a@mailbox.org>

Am 26.04.2021 um 09:53 schrieb Denis Maier:
> Hi,
> 
> just some general remarks on that issue: I tend to think that treating 
> "suppress-author" as a mode/style/command would indeed be appropriate. 
> As the minus shorthand is inherited from pandoc, it might be worth 
> pointing out that pandoc's syntax owes quite a lot to the markdown 
> philosophy, which is also emphasized by pandoc:
> 
>> Markdown is intended to be as easy-to-read and easy-to-write as is 
> feasible.
>>
>> Readability, however, is emphasized above all else
> (https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#philosophy)
> 
> That is, markdown tries to use a syntax as concise as possible, without 
> verbose commands and such. See e.g. this discussion: 
> https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/ydG9CI_XEEU/m/3LHxvp23BAAJ
> 
> The price for this is a certain opaqueness, and, to a certain degree, a 
> loss of precision, expressiveness and extensibility.
> 
> Anyway, back to the modes question:
> 
> #+begin_example
> [@doe]
> 
> [-@doe]
> 
> @doe
> 
> @doe [34]
> 
> -@doe [34]
> #+end_example
> 
> gives us in pandos AST:
> 
> #+begin_pandoc_ast
> [Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [], citationMode = NormalCitation, citationNoteNum = 1, 
> citationHash = 0}] [Str "[@doe]"]]
> ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 2, 
> citationHash = 0}] [Str "[-@doe]"]]
> ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [], citationMode = AuthorInText, citationNoteNum = 3, 
> citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe"]]
> ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [Str "34"], citationMode = AuthorInText, 
> citationNoteNum = 4, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe",Space,Str "[34]"]]
> ,Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [Str "34"], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, 
> citationNoteNum = 5, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@doe",Space,Str "[34]"]]]
> #+end_pandoc_ast
> 
> So, suppress author is essentially a mode here.

Addendum:

[@doe; -@foo]

gives us:

[Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "doe", citationPrefix = [], 
citationSuffix = [], citationMode = NormalCitation, citationNoteNum = 1, 
citationHash = 0},Citation {citationId = "foo", citationPrefix = [], 
citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 1, 
citationHash = 0}] [Str "[@doe;",Space,Str "-@foo]"]]

So, each citation in that cite has an individual mode, which goes in the 
direction indicated by Richard Lawrence in his earlier message. Maybe 
that speaks for two levels of styles, one pertaining to the whole 
citation group, one to the individual citations. Does that make sense?

> 
> FWIW, it might also be interesting to look at biblatex:
> biblatex has a textcite command:
> \textcite{doe2021} => Doe (2021)
> 
> Now, if you want to cite multiple entries, each with prefix and suffix, 
> you'll need a special variant \textcites!
> \textcites[12]{foo}[34]{bar} argue ...
> => Foo (2021, p. 12) and Bar (2021, p. 34) argue ...
> 
> I'm not sure how that fits into the org context. Interestingly, I 
> couldn't find an easy way to get "Doe (2021, p.34; see also Smith 2020) 
> ... argues". You'd probably have to resort to lower level commands such 
> as \citeauthor in combination with other commands.
> \citeauthor{doe} \parencites*[34]{doe}{smith}
> 
> Denis
> 
> Am 25.04.2021 um 22:12 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 3:48 PM András Simonyi 
>> <andras.simonyi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 at 14:50, Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> How would you deal with these?
>>>>
>>>> #+begin_example
>>>> [cite/-:@doe20; @doe21]
>>>> [cite/-:@doe20; see also @smith19]
>>>> [cite/text:@doe20; see also @smith19]
>>>> #+end_example
>>>>
>>>> My thought is you want to treat the author of the first listed cite as
>>>> suppressed, or placed in-text in the last case, but that you wouldn't
>>>> touch the other author?
>>>
>>> yes, exactly -- since it's difficult to see (at least for me) how the
>>> context could supply the author information for the subsequent cites.
>>
>> So the output for the first one would be:
>>
>> (2020, 2021)
>>
>> ..., and not:
>>
>> (2020, Doe 2021)
>>
>> As in, you would suppress the author not on the first cite (what you
>> wrote in the original reply), but the author of the first cite?
>>
>> To me, that's the only wrinkle of having this a citation-level style;
>> that a processor would need to be smart enough to handle cases like
>> that, for output styles that require it.
>>
>> But otherwise it's easier and more efficient for the user.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


  reply	other threads:[~2021-04-26  9:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 21+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-04-24 10:52 Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 12:28 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 17:08 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 17:28   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 19:36     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 20:09       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 22:51         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-25  5:55           ` András Simonyi
2021-04-25 12:50             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-25 19:48               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-25 20:12                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26  7:53                   ` Denis Maier
2021-04-26  9:05                     ` Denis Maier [this message]
2021-04-26  9:34                     ` Joost Kremers
2021-04-26 11:36                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26  7:51     ` Richard Lawrence
2021-04-26  9:33       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27  7:36         ` Richard Lawrence
2021-04-27  7:52           ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27  8:24             ` Richard Lawrence
2021-04-27 10:05             ` Bruce D'Arcus

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