From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id cKPUOhAunl+vZgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 03:40:00 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id sMyXNhAunl/RGAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 03:40:00 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 182D89403C6 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 03:40:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33966 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ4Dl-0006BW-Ty for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:39:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39762) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ4DM-0006Ak-6N for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:39:32 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]:39625) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kZ4DJ-0004ZX-Pz for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:39:31 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id i7so6136355pgh.6 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:39:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codeisgreat-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:mail-followup-to:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=JlXRbaw3sTjjglTdPbCzf4E+KRfqpMEmq9iNs9VxJyE=; b=rc+ivyQD9+hJCIuFXuXld8PXF8qD2iOK6ilfcdb6UAYEMRw7VkZ2nH8dtqEbJakCaW 9mZUr60uaJzNkedOhDTuSl/kOX36Q5/bO1W/yj7w7hPwmyY3BJTX/PDkBWeGE0fSWyLj lU5OVdyIdAkU9Ff4XkO3WY0dksXNB0aM6bdCFtmPtqd07whD4TmhOaAkKXtfKCuaJKUt njPj8tmWGN5XgkbJ9u9A8iV4GBoOVl2NJmSIHmlBBlRPqPN1uTVrX67GlOLhG6TaJ1rP WIhnfwiulszrFXiUQmQGh24Ul/GxuTcEaiJnuZ3EMpS9d8F6MMnuNblX7QIGN+bbawPP tByg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:organization:references :mail-followup-to:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version; bh=JlXRbaw3sTjjglTdPbCzf4E+KRfqpMEmq9iNs9VxJyE=; b=pgRWBaIaeJFC/ucX7A4fhfKUyZ4fzEY4o6Rlerq7BAIt2TYUaDvyl66Zznj5AEs1sd WTHGW9U87ANlqso/JgQcPGU8lbPwOc7ii3gXmp8E/sVjzvbs3G9xGmTomV6//mHcQwf9 aDq97orjqOIzlGmKVUOnlNLzu7sytsQMHDsDnen0l/Lc4nOH+SOMMLWjfFt3AhAqF42U 2ly5uiOegZ0xfnlpj329Axti4G1UrFZsT9dzYOnJoQZwb6ag1429YF9T9/0iwDrLb7TK bkq+u3pAHt6oiVypTPC7+ZsjmldWIvfKWYPAueeoP6f2SRka0JvR80ynN9nepdWfLWxj QwNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531cxKhvR0Y+ryC1RHyHQlbR9NovqHAJpzK7RjV256AX4ejevn/e fGhmIcCC9iEwUr1io41Yk+ZirwAXZkCmRA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxj+9UuCKJFN/9+bxVNmjh6EOgeI1rbL/2LMa0VesQKDXnnZ9Wrb7NH+gip1xK695KNr7AoKQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4916:: with SMTP id w22mr8105562pga.353.1604201967965; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb2.local ([2405:201:5c06:7059:117f:8963:d8ec:668a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b142sm9818846pfb.186.2020.10.31.20.39.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 31 Oct 2020 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Pankaj Jangid To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: Thoughts on the standardization of Org Organization: Code Is Great Foundation References: <878sbln73x.fsf@gmail.com> Mail-Followup-To: Tim Cross , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 09:09:24 +0530 In-Reply-To: <878sbln73x.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Sun, 01 Nov 2020 13:28:18 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c; envelope-from=pankaj.jangid@codeisgreat.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=codeisgreat-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=rc+ivyQD; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.21 X-TUID: umOb4CGTfrCM Tim Cross writes: > I should state up-front, I am somewhat sceptical regarding an org-mode > which is separate or independent of Emacs. Much of what makes org-mode > so powerful and useful is due to features of Emacs. While most, if not > all, of these features could be implemented in other solutions, the > amount of work and level of maintenance should not be under-estimated. Not only that. This will really slowdown the evolution of org-mode if the standardization is outside the control of Emacs Developers. > Over the last 30+ years involved in technology, I have seen many good > ideas come undone as the result of a standardisation effort. consider > for example, the results of the lisp standardisation that resulted in > common Lisp, what happened with CORBA, xml-rpc and the move to REST > based APIs. XHTML and the breakdown of standardisation processes > within the W3C and the development of HTML5. I am not only skeptical, I totally believe that this sort of standardization where some other party is giving org-mode a certificate, will be harmful for the development of org-mode. > The four areas which I think would provide the greatest benefit would > be to > > - Finalise the draft org syntax document on Worg, possibly adding it > to > the manual once complete. A considerable amount of work has already > been put into this document and I think it is a good start. And this should be the only source of truth. If MIME type registration changes this then better to avoid that. > - Define a specification for a property API which compliant org-mode > implementation should support. This could be based on the existing > ELisp mapping API. > > - Define a specification for an element mapping API which compliant > org-mode implementation should support. Again, this could be based > on the existing ELisp element mapping API. > > - Define a set of org reference documents. These would be documents > that > all compliant parsers should be able to process successfully. It > might also be worthwhile including some documents with common errors > which parses should be able to handle and recover from in a graceful > manner. Those developing external tools can then use these > documents as a guide and for testing their implementations. Agree. And again... the standard place should be Worg only. -- Pankaj