From: John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com>
Cc: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:00:11 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <m2bkxzxm31.fsf@andrew.cmu.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGObXjzzJTxorbGXgfU-dB2s=xeV9GJaT85yLMaOKkm6SA@mail.gmail.com>
"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:41 AM Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> A bit of routine work will alleviate some user issues:
>> - add missed styles
>
> The initial list of style-command mappings was pretty comprehensive,
> but we left out some of the more obscure biblatex commands because
> unsure if they were needed, or how best to add them (conceptually
> there's a mix of different kinds of commands in biblatex, which are
> hard to fit into a more general style system, for example).
>
> Since then:
>
> - people have occasionally asked to add new mappings, and Nicolas has added them
> - he's also added the styles defcustoms for biblatex, so users can do
> this themselves
>
> In short, I think we're good on this actually.
>
>> - improve documentation, e.g. to make backend choice more conscious.
>
> This is the bigger user-facing issue that could use attention.
>
>> Another point is more serious. Besides citations there are internal
>> cross-references. Org supports them but only in a rudimentary form.
>
> Indeed, the question of how to better support cross-references in org
> is an important one.
>
> I don't really use them much, and so am still unsure if this could be
> addressed with incremental improvements in existing org link support,
> or if it would require more significant enhancements.
No incremental improvement is required IMO, regular links are
sufficient. org-ref has handled these with regular links from the
beginning. It even has an org-ref-refproc now for non-LaTeX exports that
has some support for things like sorting, grouping and cleveref. You can
find an example org file at
https://github.com/jkitchin/org-ref/blob/master/examples/refproc.org,
and see it in action at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRR-5NSpKyE the
video has some rough spots, but you can get the idea.
You can support all kinds of things in these links (for example, I now
support pre/post note text in the cite link paths), really anything you
want to parse out of the path.
>
> Perhaps we need the community to itemize what the gaps and limitations
> are there?
>
>
> Bruce
>
>> Actually cross-references are similar to citations in the sense that
>> they can have style, prefixes and suffixes, and their appearance depends
>> on target properties. Another feature is grouping. However
>> cross-references should not be handled by citation backends, they
>> require different handlers. Unfortunately there is no way to define
>> custom "citation" type e.g. "[ref:...]" in addition to "[cite:...]".
>>
>> I can not judge if uniform UI issues are really severe and if it would
>> be convenient if depending on prefix argument either org-cite or org-ref
>> command would be called for a citation or for a reference.
>>
>> Actually "[cite:...]" construct is a kind of link with additional
>> flexibility missed for regular links. Anything besides target and
>> description requires some workarounds. Usual approach is proliferation
>> of link types. E.g. inline source blocks allows almost arbitrary extra
>> parameters. Citation syntax is rather domain specific, it allows more
>> than regular links, but for convenience the set of properties is fixed:
>> style, prefixes, locators, suffixes. It is impossible to add extra one.
>>
>> To assign additional properties, info "(org) Links in HTML export"
>> https://orgmode.org/manual/Links-in-HTML-export.html recommends usage of
>> "#+ATTR_HTML", but such technique has several issues:
>> - attributes becomes specific to the export backend
>> - the same attributes are added to the enclosing paragraph
>> https://linevi.ch/en/org-link-extra-attrs.html
>> - a paragraph may have more than one link.
>> It is possible to use link target similar to form values encoded into
>> URI, but it hardly can be considered as convenient for editing.
>>
>> Custom citation types may alleviate the issue with cross-references. It
>> would be great to have more flexible links with arbitrary properties
>> (and it would allow to consider citations and cross-references as
>> special cases of links), but it does not fit into the Org syntax.
>>
>> P.S. John has a valid complain but it hardly relates to the "cite vs.
>> cross-reference" topic. When some package is not loaded and link type is
>> undefined then the link becomes a fuzzy one leading to user confusion.
>>
>>
--
Professor John Kitchin
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu
Pronouns: he/him/his
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-03-21 17:17 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 73+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-03-20 12:08 citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 13:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-20 14:08 ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 14:38 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 0:31 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 1:39 ` Timothy
2022-03-21 8:16 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 11:51 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 12:34 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 12:52 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 13:05 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 13:24 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 21:27 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 21:53 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 22:04 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 22:47 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-24 10:04 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 12:19 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 12:42 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 14:06 ` John Kitchin
2022-04-19 22:37 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 3:27 ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-21 11:51 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 17:20 ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-25 15:53 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-27 15:33 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 15:44 ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-25 17:10 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-26 12:41 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-27 19:40 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-28 12:34 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-28 13:16 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-29 15:22 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-29 16:14 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-30 13:50 ` Denis Maier
2022-03-31 15:10 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-31 17:27 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-04-02 11:41 ` org-cite, CSL styles and space before citation Max Nikulin
2022-03-30 21:43 ` citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 John Kitchin
2022-03-21 12:59 ` juh
2022-03-22 13:03 ` indieterminacy
2022-03-23 21:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-27 17:00 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 23:17 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 14:40 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-21 15:19 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 17:00 ` John Kitchin [this message]
2022-03-25 15:21 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-22 14:41 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-22 17:20 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 12:44 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 14:39 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 15:26 ` Eric S Fraga
2022-03-23 17:17 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 22:50 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-26 19:08 ` M. Pger
2022-03-22 23:52 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 16:30 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 23:04 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-25 16:30 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-27 15:38 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 23:18 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 13:32 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 13:42 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-03-20 18:12 ` Thomas S. Dye
2022-03-20 20:13 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-20 20:30 ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 20:34 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 22:10 ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-20 19:44 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 21:14 ` chris
2022-03-21 14:21 ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 14:10 ` John Kitchin
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